[Lal]

The following post is from TobiasG.
– He was not able to post it. If anyone else run into the same problem, please send me an email: [email protected].

Please see, “Bahudhātuka Sutta (MN 115)”

Here is the quote from that reference:
“They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a woman to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.
‘Aṭṭhānametaṁ anavakāso yaṁ itthī arahaṁ assa sammāsambuddho, netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī’ti pajānāti;

But it is possible for a man to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.’
‘ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ puriso arahaṁ assa sammāsambuddho, ṭhānametaṁ vijjatī’ti pajānāti.

They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a woman to be a wheel-turning monarch.
‘Aṭṭhānametaṁ anavakāso yaṁ itthī rājā assa cakkavattī, netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī’ti pajānāti;

But it is possible for a man to be a wheel-turning monarch.’
‘ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ puriso rājā assa cakkavattī, ṭhānametaṁ vijjatī’ti pajānāti.

They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a woman to perform the role of Sakka, Māra, or Brahmā.
‘Aṭṭhānametaṁ anavakāso yaṁ itthī sakkattaṁ kareyya … mārattaṁ kareyya … brahmattaṁ kareyya, netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī’ti pajānāti… ”

*******

Question: Some people take this as the Buddha was anti-women. Also, it is said somewhere the Buddha hesitated to allow women to ordain and the Buddha Dhamma would vanish faster (within 500 years?).
Why is it that women are seen as weaker or not as capable as men?

Yes. The same description is there also in the Sangiti Sutta (DN 33).
– A Buddha would not discriminate against any LIVING bEING.
– However, all living beings do not have the same gati. They do not have the same capabilities. Thus each particular case needs to be “handled” accordingly.

There are major and minor categories of gati.
– Living beings are born in kama loka when they have “kama gati“; they are born in rupa/arupa loka when they transcend “kama gati“.
– Then in the 11 realms in “kama loka” they are born according to sub-categories of “kama gati“. Those who go to extremes in “kama gati” and commit strong immoral deeds are born in the apayas, etc.

Now, all living beings also fall into two other types of categories: “itthi gati” and “purisa gati”
– Normally those with “purisa gati” have dominant character, self-reliant, etc.
– Those with “itthi gati” are less aggressive, depend on others to some extent, etc.

Even though those with “itthi gati” are mostly born with female sex organs, sex in not the ultimate determination.
– Even during a lifetime, one born with weak purisa gati may cultivate “itthi sankhara” and that can even lead to sex change during the lifetime.
– Even rupavacara Brahmas (who don’t have sex organs) have bhava dasaka and thus fall into one of the two categories.

Therefore, the descriptions in those suttas are correct. Even though those with itthi gati can attain Arahanthood, such Arahants are far less in number. Even during the time of the Buddha most of the prominent Arahants were males.

Furthermore, one’s gati (and correspondingly sex in future births) can and will change.
– In other words, just because one is a male in this life DOES NOT mean that he will stay a male forever. As gati change, female births WILL happen in the future.

[Tobias G]

Where is that described in the Tipitaka?
Can the gender change during a bhava, so one jati as female, another as male?

[Lal]

“Where is that described in the Tipitaka?”

There may not be a direct description like that in the Tipitaka.
– We need to understand that Tipitaka provides only the basic framework.
– We need to make sure that anything that we derive is NOT contradictory to the Tipitaka.
– If anyone can present contradictory evidence, we can discuss that. That is how we sort out issues like this.

“Can the gender change during a bhava, so one jati as female, another as male?”
– Yes. I specifically stated that above.
– In fact, there is a direct Tipitaka reference for that. One time, a wealthy person saw a young Arahant taking a bath in a river. That Arahant had an attractive physique and immoral thoughts about that Arahant came to the mind of that person. His sex changed instantaneously. He lived the life of a woman for several years and had a couple of babies too. Later on, he met that Arahant again was able to switch back to become a male.
– I don’t remember the Tipitaka reference. If anyone knows, please post.

[Jittananto]

This is the story of Venerable Arahant Sorryya, Sir! When he was a layman he saw the beauty of the Venerable Arahant Mahā kaccāyana (the master of doctrinal exposition) and he desired that the Venerable become a woman so that he would marry her. However, this desire backfired and he himself became a woman! He even had children during his life as a woman. He eventually met the Venerable Maha kaccāyana and asked him for forgiveness. He instantly became a man again. This experience led him to be disgusted with the body. He eventually became ordained and worked hard to become an arahant. He reached the arahant stage with analytical knowledge. The other monks did not believe him but, Lord Buddha confirmed that he had become an arahant.

[Tobias G]

What is the relation between attha purisa puggalā and purisa gati?

Is “purisa” just “male”?
“Puggala” is “a person”, right?

Does it mean, only women with purisa gati can become sotapanna and higher?

[Lal]

“Is “purisa” just “male”?”
– No. That is what I stated above.

““Puggala” is “a person”, right?”
– Yes. That is right.

From those two, we can see that a “purisa puggala” is a “person with purisa gati.” That can mean “higher or dominant qualities.”
– Then, “attha purisa puggala” means specifically the eight types of Noble Persons.
– Therefore, women who are at or above the Sotapanna Anugami belong to that category.

[Tobias G]

See Ja 120:

“… Then the king had the sixty-four men bound and sent for the queen. And she confessed to having had guilty converse with the men. Then the king ordered off all the sixty-four to be beheaded.

But at this point the Bodhisatta cried out, “Nay, sire, the men are not to blame; for they were constrained by the queen. Wherefore pardon them. And as for the queen—she is not to blame, for the passions of women are insatiate, and she does but act according to her inborn nature. Wherefore, pardon her also, O king.”

Upon this entreaty the king was merciful, and so the Bodhisatta saved the lives of the queen and the sixty-four men, and he gave them each a place to dwell in. …”

The Bodhisatta says the queen is not to blame because she acts as per her inborn nature (asava/ditthi/gati). But that means a murderer is also not to blame because he just acts according to his gati/ditthi. It is a strange judgement from the Bodhisatta.
Also the Bodhisatta sees all woman as insatiate.

[Lal]

Yes. These are complex issues.

We need to keep in mind that it was a Bodhisatta who gave that advice, not a Buddha.

The other thing to consider is the following.
– A society lives by certain laws. If murderers are not punished, they may commit more crimes.
– Noble Persons LIVE BY a different set of rules. Buddha did not obey those rules for HIMSELF. He saw that Angulimala had the wisdom to attain Nibbana and interfered while the King was getting ready to send an army to catch and kill him.
– On the other hand, Buddha did not try to interfere with the general laws of the society. It was legal to keep slaves at that time, and the Buddha did not try to change those laws. However, he freed some slaves (just by asking them to become bhikkhus) and the King did not interfere in such cases.

[Tobias G]

Are those jataka reliable sources?
Are they entirely in the Tipitaka or are there more rebirth stories outside the Pali Canon?

[Lal]

I am not sure, Tobias.

Since that section is in the Tipitaka, there must have been a reason to include them.

However, SOME accounts that I have seen IN TRANSLATIONS (either in English or Sinhala) seem unreal.
– But I have not tried to look at the Pali version to confirm the translations.
– There is enough to read in the Tipitaka outside that section!

By the way, I have also not heard Waharaka Thero mention that section except in a couple of instances. It seems that he had also not allocated any significant time to that section.

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

Yes, Jataka stories are part of Khuddaka Nikaya of Sutta Pitaka. So its a part of Theravada Tipitaka. It is indeed Buddhavacana. No doubt about it.

[pathfinder]

In the Bhikkhunikkhandhaka, there are 8 rules which the Buddha gave at the start of the sutta before allowing bhikkhunis to join. Some of them seem discriminatory, especially the following 2:

1. A nun who has been fully ordained for a hundred years should bow down to a monk who was given the full ordination on that very day, and she should stand up for him, raise her joined palms to him, and do acts of respect toward him.

1. Vassasatūpasampannāya bhikkhuniyātadahupasampannassa bhikkhuno abhivādanaṁpaccuṭṭhānaṁ añjalikammaṁ sāmīcikammaṁkātabbaṁ.

8. From today onwards, nuns may not correct monks, but monks may correct nuns.

 8. Ajjatagge ovaṭo bhikkhunīnaṁ bhikkhūsuvacanapatho, anovaṭo bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīsuvacanapatho.

Is this the correct translation, and if it is so, why would this be a rule – why would monks be more respected than nuns?

 

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Yash RS

[Lal]

“Is this the correct translation, and if it is so, why would this be a rule – why would monks be more respected than nuns?”

• I don’t think I should try to explain such things. Some issues are discernible only to a Buddha. 

In the “Gotamī Sutta (AN 8.51)“, Buddha says:

“Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long. The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.

• But Buddha’s predictions did come true. The “peak period” of the Buddha Sasana lasted only 500 years.
• Also see “Counterfeit Buddhism – Current Mainstream Buddhism.”

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Yash RS, Jittananto, pathfinder, pathfinder, dosakkhayo

[taryal]

Lal wrote:

Even during the time of the Buddha most of the prominent Arahants were males.

Hmm, I am focused more on the teachings than issues like these. However, I would like to share that I have not seen a single female in this website’s forums.

P.S. I shared this stuff with some of my female friends but none of them were interested. One of them even seemed overwhelmed so I decided to stop. I think it will be difficult to learn Dhamma with a “soft” character. While it may not be appropriate to explicitly say this nowadays, but women tend to be more “soft” naturally than men.

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

taryal wrote:

Lal wrote:

Even during the time of the Buddha most of the prominent Arahants were males.

Hmm, I am focused more on the teachings than issues like these. However, I would like to share that I have not seen a single female in this website’s forums.

P.S. I shared this stuff with some of my female friends but none of them were interested. One of them even seemed overwhelmed so I decided to stop. I think it will be difficult to learn Dhamma with a “soft” character. While it may not be appropriate to explicitly say this nowadays, but women tend to be more “soft” naturally than men.

 

You noticed it too!! I don’t know. This is how the majority of women, especially Western women, are not interested in the Dhamma. When I try to explain it to them, they find it strange and weird. One tried to get deeply interested but ended up giving up. She says she prefers to remain without religion! On the Dhamma forums, I haven’t seen women discussing either. However, there is a monastery composed entirely of Bhikkhunis in California. This is the Dhammadharini Monastery .

 

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taryal

[Yash RS]

I too shared these teachings many times to my female friend, and she said that she would be reading it but never did. There is something about majority of women that lacks intellect or curiosity, but it ultimately depends on the person, my mother for example was very keen in knowing all this stuff from a young age and was very curious towards such things. 

 

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Jittananto

[Dawson]

Excuse me?! The majority of women lack intellect or curiosity? 

[dosakkhayo]

It is not correct to generalize from an individual’s fragmentary experience. However, I believe no one in the forum attempted to make such generalizations. But we need to be careful with our words.

with metta

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Yash RS, taryal

[taryal]

I believe Yash is not a native speaker of English. So I don’t think he intended to say anything derogatory. What we were discussing was that when it comes to learning the stuff that requires a lot of mental effort (like Dhamma), women end up being a minority by a significant margin. For example, if we look at the Engineering Statistics of Women, only 7.7% of women worked in science and engineering (S&E) occupations in 2021.

But I agree with dosakkhayo, we should not generalize people based on our personal experience. Though we should be mindful of the differences between male and female. 

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dosakkhayo, Yash RS, Jittananto

[Jittananto]

My intention is not to hurt anyone. If anyone was hurt by my words, please forgive me. Of course, it is not good to generalize. We were just reporting our respective experiences. We must not forget that there have been several known and unknown female arahants in this Sasana. The best known are Venerable Arahant Yashodara Theri (bodhisatas’s wife), Venerable Arahant Khema Theri (chief female nun), Venerable Arahant Uppalavanna Theri (second chief nun) and countless numbers of female devis or humans who have reached various stages of magga phala.

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dosakkhayo, taryal, Yash RS

[Yash RS]

Hmm, I think written texts don’t express our intentions and tones. 

What I said was my experience and I don’t think this should have been triggering in any way. This is what I have seen all my life till now. Majority of the women are not interested in such things. But I also mentioned that it too depends on the Person’s Gati, it’s not a general thing. As Taryal also mentioned the statistics.

In many Indian households ,people especially hindu women follow certain rituals and fasts and if asked about the reason, they say that it has been followed since their ancestors. They don’t want to use slightest intelligence in such things but are ready to Gossip about other women. Many Men too do such things. As I mentioned earlier it depends on the Person’s Gati.

 

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto, taryal

[Yash RS]

I would recommend everyone that no one on this forum, who is genuinely aiming to achieve Nibbana, would say anything derogatory intentionally, so it’s best to understand each other’s thoughts . We all are here to achieve the highest level of compassion for all beings! 

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto, taryal

[Jittananto]

Here are two suttas that demonstrate the wisdom and powers of the two main arahant nuns of Lord Buddha.

Khemāsutta

Uppalavaṇṇāsutta

Even if 100,000 rascals like you

“Sataṁ sahassānipi dhuttakānaṁ,

were to come here,

Idhāgatā tādisakā bhaveyyuṁ;

I’d stir not a hair nor panic.

Lomaṁ na iñjāmi na santasāmi,

I’m not scared of you, Māra, even alone.

Na māra bhāyāmi tamekikāpi.

 

I’ll vanish,

Esā antaradhāyāmi,

or I’ll enter your belly;

kucchiṁ vā pavisāmi te;

I could stand between your eyebrows

Pakhumantarikāyampi,

and you still wouldn’t see me.

tiṭṭhantiṁ maṁ na dakkhasi.

I’m the master of my own mind,

Cittasmiṁ vasībhūtāmhi,

I’ve developed the bases of psychic power well.

iddhipādā subhāvitā;

I’m free from all bonds,

Sabbabandhanamuttāmhi,

and I’m not afraid of you, sir!”

na taṁ bhāyāmi āvuso”ti.

 

There are several stories of Venerable Theri being disrupted by Mara Devaputta in several ways. See Bhikkhunīvagga. He even said that women couldn’t reach the arahant stage because they were stupid and not wise. Venerable Arahant Soma Theri has refuted these false allegations. In some cases, Mara even tried to have sexual intercourse with a Bhikkhuni Arahant.

1. Mara tries to have sex with Venerable Arahant Vijaya Theri.She explains that there are beings who are reborn in the Rūpa Loka and the Arupa Loka. Even though they experience peaceful happiness, she has eliminated Rūpa and Arupā ragā. I believe she means that there are beings who are outside the power of Mara Devaputta (that is to say, free from sensual pleasures). She has surpassed these beings since she no longer desires anything from the 3 lokas. By saying this, she emphasizes to Mara that it is impossible to tempt someone who no longer desires anything from the 3 lokas (an arahant). Vijayāsutta

“You’re so young and beautiful,

“Daharā tvaṁ rūpavatī,

and I’m a youth in my prime.

ahañca daharo susu;

Come, my lady, let us enjoy

Pañcaṅgikena turiyena,

the music of a five-piece band.”

ehayyebhiramāmase”ti.

 

Sights, sounds, tastes, smells,

“Rūpā saddā rasā gandhā,

and touches so delightful.

phoṭṭhabbā ca manoramā;

I hand them right back to you, Māra,

Niyyātayāmi tuyheva,

for I have no use for them.

māra nāhaṁ tenatthikā.

 

This body is foul,

Iminā pūtikāyena,

decaying and frail.

bhindanena pabhaṅgunā;

I’m horrified and repelled by it,

Aṭṭīyāmi harāyāmi,

and I’ve eradicated sensual craving.

kāmataṇhā samūhatā.

There are beings in the realm of luminous form,

Ye ca rūpūpagā sattā,

and others stuck in the formless.

ye ca arūpaṭṭhāyino; 

and also those peaceful attainments:

Yā ca santā samāpatti,

I’ve destroyed the darkness regarding all of them.”

sabbattha vihato tamo”ti.

 

2. Mara informs Venerable Arahant Soma Theri that a woman cannot attain enlightenment. She asserts that this belief is clearly mistaken. She explains that a wise person even if she grasps a woman’s bhava can see the Dhamma. Somāsutta

That state’s very challenging;

“Yaṁ taṁ isīhi pattabbaṁ,

it’s for the sages to attain.

ṭhānaṁ durabhisambhavaṁ;

It’s not possible for a woman,

Na taṁ dvaṅgulapaññāya,

with her two-fingered wisdom.”

sakkā pappotumitthiyā”ti.

 

Then the nun Somā thought,

Atha kho somāya bhikkhuniyā etadahosi:

“Who’s speaking this verse, a human or a non-human?”

“ko nu khvāyaṁ manusso vā amanusso vā gāthaṁ bhāsatī”ti?

 

Then she thought,

Atha kho somāya bhikkhuniyā etadahosi:

“This is Māra the Wicked, wanting to make me feel fear, terror, and goosebumps, wanting to make me fall away from immersion!”

“māro kho ayaṁ pāpimā mama bhayaṁ chambhitattaṁ lomahaṁsaṁ uppādetukāmo samādhimhā cāvetukāmo gāthaṁ bhāsatī”ti.

 

Then Somā, knowing that this was Māra the Wicked, replied to him in verse:

Atha kho somā bhikkhunī “māro ayaṁ pāpimā” iti viditvā māraṁ pāpimantaṁ gāthāhi paccabhāsi:

 

“What difference does womanhood make

“Itthibhāvo kiṁ kayirā,

when the mind is serene,

cittamhi susamāhite;

and knowledge is present

Ñāṇamhi vattamānamhi,

as you rightly discern the Dhamma.

sammā dhammaṁ vipassato.

 

Surely someone who might think:

Yassa nūna siyā evaṁ,

‘I am woman’, or ‘I am man’,

Itthāhaṁ purisoti vā;

or ‘I am’ anything at all,

Kiñci vā pana aññasmi, 

is fit for Māra to address.”

Taṁ māro vattumarahatī”ti.

• Both women and men can achieve the 4 stages of Magga phala if the efforts are undertaken correctly. All of this depends on each person’s Paramis and Kusulas. Bhikkhunis must be honored and respected. When I was in Thailand, there was a bhikkhuni who left an impression on me. She was serene and respected the Vinaya better than the vast majority of bhikkhus I met. Always calm and spent her time meditating. I remember when I was making offerings to this Venerable Theri, my intuition told me that I had accumulated a large quantity of Kusulas. After the alms offering, I felt serene and experienced pīti (joy). It’s been two years, but this action comes to my mind often until today.
• There is a Dhammadharini Monastery in California that requires support from the lay community. It is primarily composed of Bhikkhunis. Let’s support this wonderful monastery in honour of the Venerable Bhikkhunis Arahants of the past!

 

 

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taryal

[taryal]

Good post, Gad. But how can a deva (Mara) have sex with a human? Aren’t devas’ bodies too thin for that?

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Jittananto, Yash RS, Yash RS

[Jittananto]

• Thanks, Taryal! Mara Devaputta is part of the Kāma loka just like us humans. He adores sensual pleasures and wants to keep beings in these worlds. He can make his body denser with his Iddhis powers. The Brahmas of the Rupa Lokas must make their bodies dense when they visit the Kāma Loka. It is impossible for a human or a deva who does not have jhanas to see them. See Hattakha sutta. The arupas Brahmas cannot be seen by anyone except Lord Buddha and are completely detached from the two lower lokas. 
• The main point I want to make is that higher beings who possess iddhi powers can put themselves on the level of lower beings. Hattakha Brahma is superior to Lord Buddha in the sense that he does not have a dense body and is not subject to illness and physical pain. He also does not have a deformed Sanna linked to Kāma loka (taste of sugar, vision of beautiful women and hideous people). He only has the Rūpa and the Arupa Sanna. Mara Devaputta thought he could tempt the Venerable Arahant Vijaya Theri. He is willing to go into lower pleasures to distract others from the Dhamma. His powers only work on those below the Sotāpanna Anugāmi stage who have strong attractions for Kāma Ragā.

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taryal, Waisaka

[Lal]

Jittananto’s description above is correct.

• However, it is possible that Mara Devaputta just wanted to tease the bhikkhuni or tried to see whether he could tempt her.
• Mara Devaputta lives in the highest Deva realm. He could have sex with unimaginably beautiful female Devas in that realm. There was no need for him to have sex with a human.

P.S. The statement, ” Hattakha Brahma is superior to Lord Buddha in the sense that he does not have a dense body and is not subject to illness and physical pain” is not appropriate, even though it is true that Brhamas don’t feel physical pain. No one is superior to the Buddha.

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Jittananto, taryal

[taryal]

Thank you, Gad and Dr.Lal! Speaking of Iddhi powers, my understanding is that the javana citta of Brahmas or a human with similar Jhanas can generate significant amount of matter. I believe this is what happens during the (re)formation phase of a chakkavala where uncountable Brahmas generate immense matter via javana citta which involves abhisankhara. Greed and Hate are generally inactive in their minds so is it the raga and moha that involves javana cittas in this case? Also, an arahant/buddha doesn’t have abhisankhara so how do they use iddhi powers?

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Jittananto

[Lal]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that the Buddha mainly focused on teaching what suffering is (to move away from the “suffering-free state” or the “pabhassara mind”) and how to stop it.

• His description of javana cittas is limited to those with raga, dosa, moha, leading to the arising of more bhava and jati in this world.
• Abhisankhara are sankhara with raga, dosa, moha.

A pure mind (in the absence of raga, dosa, moha) is capable of generating much more powerful results, like iddhi powers.

• However, the Buddha did not elaborate on the mechanism responsible for such powers. However, it should be clear that Abhisankhara cannot yield them. 
• Even some anariya yogis had some iddhi powers. Those were generated while they were highest jhana, where the abhisankhara generation was minimal.

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

Sir Lal:The statement, ” Hattakha Brahma is superior to Lord Buddha in the sense that he does not have a dense body and is not subject to illness and physical pain” is not appropriate, even though it is true that Brhamas don’t feel physical pain. No one is superior to the Buddha.

 

Me: Of course, in the 3 Lokas, no being can be compared to the Supreme Lord Buddha. I wanted to speak about certain aspects, particularly on a physical level. In the Mahāsakuludāyisutta, he explicitly stated that there are disciples who surpass him in physical aspects such as the dhutaṅgas. He explained to Anariyas that he is not revered and honoured by physical prowess but by 5 things. The first is his perfect virtue, which surpasses all beings. The second is his perfect knowledge of the world through direct experience. The third is his infinite wisdom. The fourth is his perfect knowledge of the 4 noble truths and his ability to teach it satisfactorily. The last quality is his ability to teach Sathipattana, the 4 Jhānas, the 4 arupavacara samapatti, the Iddhis powers, the Kasinas, the path to Pannavimutta and Cetovimutta, etc. This is an excellent sutta, and I invite everyone to read it.

[Author]

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