[Vinh]

Hello, I wanted to ask if an anagami (non returner to the Sense world ) will always be reborn in the pure abodes or if an anagami can be reborn anywhere in the rupa loka (certainly free of apayas and Sense sphere)

in kind regards Vinh 

 

 

 

[Lal]

An Anagami (who has removed kama raga and patigha samyojana) will be born in a  “suddhāvāsa” (“pure abodes”) reserved for them, and NOT in any other realm in rupa loka. See #6 of the post below.

• A Sotapanna/Sakadagami who has cultivated Ariya or anariya jhana will be reborn in a Brahma realm (according to the jhana cultivated), and those are NOT  “suddhāvāsa” (“pure abodes”). However, they also do not “come back” to kama loka.
• Those anariya yogis who do not have magga phala but cultivated anariya jhana will be reborn in a Brahma realm (according to the jhana cultivated), but they “come back” to kama loka, i.e., they will be reborn in the human realm at the end of that Brahma existence.
• Details in “Ariya Jhāna and Anariya Jhāna – Main Differences.”

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Jittananto

[Vinh]

Thank you for the answer isn’t karma raga and the patigha fetter temporarily supressed (not removed like in an anagami ) in brahmas of the rupa loka does this not imply an Anagami can have non sensual desires (while an anagami removes kama raga and patigha he doesn’t remove the higher fetter for desire for rupa pleasure which only is removed at arhat )like that of the first  dhyana ?I remember an old post of you where you mentioned that technicly sotappana etc isn’t about what bhava is possible but what bhava becomes impossible at sotppana it means free from apaya at sakadgami free from human realm (only deva realm +)and at anagami free from the sense sphere .(only brahma realms )Certainly the pure abodes can only be occupied by anagamis but there is a difference between all beings in the pure abodes being anagamis and all anagamis having to be in the pure abode . At anagami the 5 lower fetters are anihiliated yet only and arhat removes desire for rupa pleasure . Considering this does this not mean an anagami can be attached to the first dhyana pleasure for example(certainly no sense pleasure ) would it not make sense that a being free of the Sense world but attached to this pleasure is reborn there ?i remember a sutta in which an anagami becomes reborn in the first dhyana and attains arhat from there (upon which he immediately passes in the first dhyana ) there was also a sutta in which two devas are taught by a noble one who become anagamins and are reborn in the brahma purohita realm(give  me a little till I find the two suttas )

-vinh

[Vinh]

Lal wrote:

Here are some critical points to remember:

1. A normal human can be born in most of the 31 realms (excluding those realms reserved for the Anagamis).

– A birth (jati) is within the bhava that is grasped at the cuti-patisandhi moment. A bhava is grasped based on a kamma vipaka.
– If a good kamma vipaka (kamma beeja) is grasped one is born in sugati (good bhava): human, deva, brahma. Such kamma vipaka are rooted in alobha, adosa, amoha, i.e., those are based on meritorious deeds or punnabhisankhara (for arupavacra brahma realms anenjabhisankhara).
– If a bad kamma vipaka (kamma beeja) is grasped one is born in dugati (bad bhava): the four lowest realms. Such kamma vipaka are rooted in lobha, dosa, moha, i.e., those are based on meritorious deeds or apunnabhisankhara.

2. One will be eligible for all these bhava (and jati) until one attains the Sotapanna stage.

– A Sotapanna will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas). There could be many such bad kamma beeja, but he/she WILL NOT grasp any of them.
– A Sakadagami will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas) and the human bhava. So, a Sakadagami can be born only in a deva or brahma bhava.
– An Anagami will not grasp a bhava in the lowest 4 realms (apayas) and anywhere in kama loka. So, an Anagami can be born only in a brahma bhava. Most are born in the rupavacara brahma realms reserved for Anagamis.
– An Arahant will not born any of the 31 realms. He/she will attain Parinibbana upon the death of the physical body.

3. When one is born in a “good bhava“, lobha, dosa, moha are SUPPRESSED at various levels.

– For example, when one is born in any brahma realm, kama raga is absent as long as one is in that bhava. But that brahma may grasp a lower bhava with kama raga (say human) upon death there. In this case, it is said that kama raga remained as an anusaya during the brahma lifetime, because it had NOT been REMOVED.
– However, an Ariya will NEVER grasp a lower bhava, because he/she has REMOVED anusaya at that level. For example, a Sakadagmi will NOT be born in the human bhava or the apayas.

4. This can be explained via step-by-step removal of the dasa samyojana as well, with stages of magga phala.

– For example, three samyojana of sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa are removed at the Sotapanna stage. With those three “bonds” REMOVED, a Sotapanna will never be born in the apayas.

These are important facts. Don’t hesitate to ask questions if not clear.

[Lal]

I don’t understand your questions in your first comment. In the second comment, you seem to indicate that there are contradictions in my post, but I can’t sort them out.

• First, please copy and paste your first comment into a word processor and correct the grammar.
• Then, break that one paragraph into questions if you have multiple questions.
• Under each question, ask the question and point out any issues with my statements in my post that could be relevant. 

 

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