[Christian]

I wondered about sub-types of Noble People and those of anariya breed and I catch up one interesting thing about padaparama. In one translation I read about those as worthless which probably “never” (very long time) attain Nibbana but in Sutta Buddha would speak more lightly about them or with more hope in general (from Ugghaṭitaññū Sutta (AN. ii. 135)

What sort of person is quick in acquiring (ugghaṭitaññū)?
The person for whom there is penetration of the Dhamma at the very time when it is being taught is called “quick in acquiring.”

What sort of person is one who learns by means of a detailed exposition (vipañcitaññū)?
The person for whom there is penetration of the Dhamma when the meaning of what has been taught in brief is later analysed in detail is called “one who learns by means of a detailed exposition.”

What sort of person is one who may be guided (neyya)?
The person for whom penetration of the Dhamma comes gradually by means of recitation, questioning, proper attention, and by serving, cultivating and waiting upon kalyānamittas is called “one who may be guided.”

What sort of person is one for whom the letter alone is the highest thing (padaparama)?
The person for whom penetration of the Dhamma will not come in this life, however much [of the Teaching] he may hear and speak and bear in mind or recite, is called to be “one for whom the letter alone is the highest thing.”
(Puggalapaññatti 41-2; Designation of Human Types 58)

There are even more then four from what I read but this is what I found in Sutta.

Just sharing for maybe addition or continuation for the further posts.

[Lal]

These four categories of persons are discussed in the posts: “Sutta – Introduction” and “Sutta Learning Sequence for the Present Day“.

However, the sutta that you quoted was not referenced and I just revised the two posts to add the reference.
Thanks, Christian!

[Tobias G]

link to post

Please see #5:
“It is important to realize from #4 above that a Sōtapanna Anugāmi will never “die” from the Ariya birth, and that no time limit is given. Only upon getting to the Sōtapanna stage, that one will have limited number of births…”

What does it mean: will have only births in the human realm or above until the Sotapanna stage is reached?

[Lal]

That just means a Sotapanna Anugami (or higher) will never lose the Ariya (Noble Person) status, Tobias.

Once born an Ariya (i.e., becomes a Sotapanna Anugami), one will not go back to an “average human” (puthujjana) status. That is why it is in quotes in “never “die”.

– Of course, there will likely be one up to many “physical deaths” until the Arahant stage is attained.
– But he/she is free of the apayas forever.
– Pu it in another way, one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi and has started seeing the anicca (and dukkha and anatta) nature of this world.

[cubibobi]

This discussion makes me remember a couple of Pali terms I read elsewhere: sotapatti magga and sotapatti phala.

Is it correct to say that a Sotapanna Anugami is one who has attained sotapatti magga, and that a Sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti phala?

Thank you,
Lang

[Lal]

Lang asked, “Is it correct to say that a Sotapanna Anugami is one who has attained sotapatti magga, and that a Sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti phala?”

There is some confusion because of the terms used.

1. One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (one on the way to become a Sotapanna) when one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi, learns about the correct Tilakkhana, and has STARTED comprehending those Tilakkhana.

2. When that person makes progress in the comprehension of the “unfruitful nature of this world”, at some point he/she would complete that phase and actually become a Sotapanna.
– At that MOMENT, two CONSECUTIVE citta flow through his/her mind, the Sotapanna MAGGA CITTA, and the Sotapannna PHALA CITTA. At that INSTANT, he/she becomes a Sotapanna.

The confusion comes when the difference between those two things is not understood.

This can be further clarified by the following. That Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.
– Here, one does not even need to know that one has become a Sotapanna. As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.
– Then one actually BECOMES a Sakadagami when one goes through the Sakadagami magga citta followed by the Sakadagami phala citta (that is a higher level of comprehending Tilakkhana).
– That is how there are EIGHT Noble Persons. Each Nibbanic stage (Sotapnna to Arahant) is associated with two “Noble Person states”.

P.S. Just yesterday I revised the following relevant post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“

[y not]

– “..Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.”
– “As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.”

Now say such a one makes that effort and dies as a Sakadagami Anugami. Not returning to the human realm(or below) applies to Sakadagamis, those who have attained the magga and the phala.

So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)

Is this correct?

[Lal]

“So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)

Is this correct?”

Not really. The progress cannot be measured just in terms of “change of bhava”.
– One may have not reached the next destination, but one may have covered a significant portion of that distance. That is an analogy.

[Author]

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