[sybe07]

I think anicca is a common sanna which does not need a Buddha. This is not meant to underestimate the Budddha’s teachings and his live.

But i think most people realise they cannot maintain, for example, their car to their wish. A lot of people get frustrated at again more costs, again to the garage, again painting the house, again cleaning, again and again….

Yes, i really belief most people do see and experience that one cannot maintain things to their own satisfaction or wish.

People get also depressed seeing this. They ask themselves ‘what is this live worth?’ ‘what am i doing while everything i do will just vanish in some years’? I think most people who are not buddhist also see this. I asked myself this when i was about 16 years.

I belief anicca is part of our collective experience as mankind.

Or people get so depressed with anicca that they committ suicide or become drop-outs, junks, drunks, loose theirselves in extremes. Or people just forget it, step over it, act like it does not exist, push it aside and go on with realising their ambitions, wishes, dreams, and their normal patterns.

what alternative is there for most of the people?

The Buddha has an alternative. In stead of just forgetting anicca he stimulates people to dig deep in this sanna. At the same time he leaves people not depressed and helpless behind, but he describes and shows with his own live that it can lead to cooling down, happiness, and freedom from samsara.

Siebe

[sybe07]

I think a real obstacle is also the world around us.

Society is like a dream-factory. It is not designed on anicca-sanna. It is designed on nicca-sanna. One has to dream of happiness, a better world, getting this or that. And we are sensitive for this tempting messages which are everywhere seen and heard. It is overwhelmingly present.

I think most people see, in some way, maybe not very strong, anicca, dukkha and also anatta. I do not think we see the total picture but we are not fully unaware of anicca, dukkha and anatta too without a Buddhha . Maybe we do not see it in all its aspects and depths, but we are not fully unaware. On the contrary!

But what is unique, i belief, is that the Buddha teaches that those three perceptions do not have to make us sad, depressed, anxious, but the Buddha taught that in fact these three perceptions are the three gateways to liberation. I think that is unique. That is, i think, not our collective understanding.

The tendency in society is that the commonly felt and seen perceptions of anicca, dukkha and anatta are not allowed to be true. This might even be true among friends or in a family. They are seen as perceptions of a sick mind, a hopeless mind, a depressed mind, a negative mind.

So, one is more or less urged/forced to set these kind of perceptions aside as soon possible. Forget it.

I belief the Buddha shows a better Path.

Siebe

[Lal]

@Siebe: I am glad to see that you are making progress.

Full understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta does not come in one shot as a big revelation, even though just getting a glimpse of it makes one’s mind joyful. One can see that there is a Path to happiness (via getting rid of suffering).

It comes is stages. A Sotapanna Anugami gets a glimpse of it, and the basic idea is permanently established at the Sotapanna stage. That is when one can start putting it to practice.

By the time one gets to the Anagami stage, one has seen AND verified the uselessness of seeking sense pleasures.

It is only at the Arahant stage that one has truly verified that it is useless to crave anything at all in this world of 31 realm (even jhanic pleasures, ability to travel through the air, etc). We cannot even begin to imagine that stage. That is where one truly gets rid of the “sense of me”, by realizing via experience that it does not make sense to take any part of pancakkhandha as “mine”.

Theory itself is not enough. That is just the beginning. One meaning of Sotapanna is “starting on the stream or the Path”. Then one starts putting the theory to practice.

Buddha Dhamma is deeper than anyone can possibly imagine.

[sybe07]

Yes, thanks Lal.

I feel in myself there is a struggle going on for decades.

There is, as it were, this worldly Siebe, this worldly man with so much fire, eagerness, passion, desires, hopes, dreams, big expactations of this world.

This mindstream can be very strong. I call this sometimes ‘the child-inside me’. A part of me wants to be childish. It does not want to awaken. It does not want to see things as they are. It wants to dream. It enjoys being intoxicated, not by drugs or liquor, but intoxicated with dreams, hopes, desires etc. It has the perception of nicca. It holds on to it and does not want to loose it.

It can become destructive, drag down wisdom and the Triple Gem, drag down Lal, it can become quit obstinate…and yes, it can enjoy that too. I think it’s not oke, but it is there.

So i can see there is a habitual resistence to awaken and obstinate tendencies to ripen, but there is also a longing to awaken, to find the Truth.
Both manifest as struggle.

I know by now forcing too much is not good too. This you teach too in your posts i read. Things have to develop naturally.

I have accepted that this struggle is apparantly my way. It’s not really a conscious choice to struggle. Digesting Buddha-Dhamma comes with Siebe burping sometimes and getting cramps, but in a deeper sense i feel i am on the right track. Sometimes there maybe an outburst of burps, but i do not give op.

Your posts on your website are helpful for me in digesting Budddha-Dhamma.
Much merit to you!

kind regards,
Siebe

[y not]

Hi Sybe!

I just came across your posts.

The thing is normal people do have the anicca sanna in the various ways that you mention, yes, but they stop there. This may lead to hopelessness and even depression. But the anicca sanna is only a part of the cure.

If you read AN 7.49 :
Sattimā, bhikkhave, saññā bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā honti mahānisaṃsā amatogadhā amata­pari­yosānā. Katamā satta? Asubhasaññā, maraṇasaññā, āhāre paṭikūlasaññā, sabbaloke anabhi­rata­saññā, aniccasaññā, anicce dukkhasaññā, dukkhe anattasaññā……I am not copying the English translation because some terms are not renedered correctly.

The seven perceptions are given and linked together starting with that of Asubha -unfruitfullness (the translation gives that as unattractiveness, implying the sense of sight mainly) then on to death, food,’all the worlds’then anicca, followed by ANICCE DUKKHA and
DUKKHE ANATTA. That is, the Buddha showed that when the perception of anicca arises, that perception should be GONE INTO not just fleetingly, which brings one to see the Dukkha in it, and go into that, then from the perception of Dukkha , DUKKHE ANATTA follows, that is , one sees that DUKKHA is ANATTA, or that the perception of ANATTA follows from DUKKHA. That is why, at the very start, the seven perceptions are not only developed but PURSUED, they have a great effect and bring great reward…and they lead ‘into’ the DEATHLESS(as the path or ground) and TO the DEATHLESS (as the final goal) ,that is NIBBANA. How more positive can it be?

Moreover, when one sees Anatta in everything, one then sees that Ultimate Reality cannot be that, it can only be ATTA -which is Sukkha and Nicca. You take the right road only when you have seen the wrong one for what it is.

Lal has got it all condensed in half a sentence and one: …’even though just getting a glimpse of it makes one’s mind joyful. One can see that there is a Path to happiness (via getting rid of suffering)’

y not

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