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Vb18 mentions age limits for all the realms:
Manussānaṁ kittakaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ? 180.2Vassasataṁ, appaṁ vā bhiyyo.
What is the age limit of human beings? One hundred years or less or more.
But there is a sutta where the Buddha says that previous humans had much longer lifetimes than the lifetimes of the other Buddhas in this eon. How does that fit together?
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Yes. The “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14)“ provides the lifetimes of humans during the times of previous Buddhas, and those are correct.
- I have seen this issue in several places. Even the Tipitaka Commentaries may not be entirely accurate. Those were composed by Arahants, who are not as knowledgeable as a Buddha. In this case, they used the lifetime known to them. Also, we need to remember that these kinds of details are not connected to wisdom; they are just bits of information.
- Therefore, we must always prioritize the Sutta Pitaka over the other two Pitakas in the Tipitaka.
P.S. We also need to remember that this age limit refers to the lifetime of the physical human body. Human existence may last even for many hundreds of thousands of years, i.e., the lifetime of the “mental body” or “manomaya kaya” or “gandhabba” can be very long. During that time, one can be born with a physical human body numerous times.
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The length of ” human bhava” depends on the kammic energy responsible for it.
- So, it should not depend on the lifetime of the “physical human body,” which only depends on the environmental conditions.
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No. The only way to reduce the duration of a “human bhava” is to engage in an anantariya kamma.
- Harmful anantariya kammas, including killing one’s parents, killing an Arahant, etc. (five types), end one’s human bhava when the physical body dies. Upon the death of the physical body, one will be reborn in an apaya even if more kammic energy for the human bhava remains.
- Beneficial anantariya kammas are cultivating jhana and attaining magga phala. If a jhana is cultivated, one will be reborn in the corresponding Brahma realm. If a magga phala is attained, one may be reborn in a higher realm, depending on the magga phala. For example, an Anagami will be reborn in a Brahma realm reserved for them upon the death of the physical body.
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In extreme cases, a “human bhava” may end prematurely, even without doing an anantariya kamma.
- For example, if someone cultivates “peta gati” (greed) to extreme levels, their gandhabba will keep cultivating that gati when they die. Then, that “human gandhabba” may gradually change into that of a “peta” (hungry ghost.)
- I have not seen a specific account in the Tipitaka, but I remember listening to Waharaka Thero‘s discourse in which he pointed out that possibility.
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Wouldn’t that be a contradiction if we apply the logic of Kamma bhava? For instance, let’s consider a person who has a 700-year-old human bhava. In this bhava, he gets shot and injured on the ground, leading to significant blood loss. He then sees his attacker and develops a strong hatred, desiring revenge and the destruction of his attacker. If he dies with this thought in mind, it’s evident that he has cultivated the Kamma Bhava of a being of the Nirayas. Can this Kamma Bhava become an Uppatti Bhava?
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Yes. The “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14)“ provides the lifetimes of humans during the times of previous Buddhas, and those are correct.
- I have seen this issue in several places. Even the Tipitaka Commentaries may not be entirely accurate. Those were composed by Arahants, who are not as knowledgeable as a Buddha. In this case, they used the lifetime known to them. Also, we need to remember that these kinds of details are not connected to wisdom; they are just bits of information.
- Therefore, we must always prioritize the Sutta Pitaka over the other two Pitakas in the Tipitaka.
P.S. We also need to remember that this age limit refers to the lifetime of the physical human body. Human existence may last even for many hundreds of thousands of years, i.e., the lifetime of the “mental body” or “manomaya kaya” or “gandhabba” can be very long. During that time, one can be born with a physical human body numerous times.
Good Lal,
Where does the idea, that “we should remember” come from. Usually death is defined by break apart of the body. Atma wouldn’t say that certain tendencies don’t follow, as there are also many human being with conducts like animals, petas, and also Devas, yet the common used border of end of life doesn’t seem to be else like the body one has taken on.
Or would good Lal say that if one falls into a tendency like a Brahma, yet still human body, that he/she took another existence?
People tend to think that they are human, even think that they (human) then become this or that, something like Disney’s wonders, and so hardly to efforts not to fall down.
It’s wrong view that leads for sure down, causes animal womb, peta, hell.
It’s not a useful idea, such as “i am a human” wandering on, but much better that it’s very, very seldom to gain after death as human, another human existence.
So maybe good Lal likes to investigate that part more deeper, so that it’s nor unfortunately mistaken, and a seldom change gone by feeling to secure in certain relation.
Animal have the tendency to often return, yet even there the main lane is downwardly.
There is a lot of Sakkāyadiṭṭhi potential in this point, and lot of ‘human pride’. Yet in the time now, if looking on how many die even befor leaving womb, of human lifespan isn’t much above 30, if not lesser.
(Samana Johann)
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To Samana Johann:
What do you mean by writing: “Or would good Lal say that if one falls into a tendency like a Brahma, yet still human body, that he/she took another existence?”
- Do you understand the difference between “bhava” and “jati” for a human?
- When first grasping the “human existence (bhava),” a human gandhabba is born. It has a “subtle boy” like that of a Brahma and may have a lifetime of many thousands of years. Within that lifetime, that human gandhabba can be born with a physical human body (like ours) that lives only for about a hundred years. Therefore, each of us will probably be reborn many times (with a dense human body) for a long time until the gandhabba‘s life comes to an end.
- That is why in children’s rebirth accounts, they can recall their last past life with a dense physical body. The two births are separated by several or even thousands of years. Between two such consecutive “births,” it lives in the gandhabba state with a “subtle body” that we cannot see.
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Again, good Lal, maybe there are ways for him to investigate the matter lesser for this or that “Arahat”. Today people watch many movies.
Suttas are well preserved.
It’s certain risky to gamble in such way in regard of a human existence.
The reasons of holding certain views are well exponent in the first Sutta, the Brahma-net.
So again: What’s called birth by the Buddha and his disciples, it’s definition?
What’s called death?
What’s called existence?
(Samana Johann)
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This website aims to teach deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings.
- Other websites and discussion forums discuss “easy-to-grasp” concepts that underlie Buddha’s teachings. There is nothing wrong with that. The danger is that most of those websites and textbooks have misleading ideas that, once grasped, are hard to remove.
- I want to use this website to preserve the deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings.
- You may want to participate in forums that are suitable for you.
You asked: “So again: What’s called birth by the Buddha and his disciples, it’s definition?
What’s called death?
What’s called existence?
- I suggest reading the post “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”
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