Reply To: Kiriya Citta


Now I can see I have little knowledge of Citta Vithi and Abhidhamma. I didn’t know that Tadarammana citta could be replaced with Bhavanga citta before.

According to #44223, Lal said:

Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.

  • At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
  • The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
  • Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives)  starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
  • Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
  • I just realized something that I need to look into. Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life. That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. Can that be due to mano sankhara? I will look into that.
  • It is time to rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts. A lot of information needs to be added to make it clear and consistent.

A few months ago, I read it in the forum and reasoned two things.

A. Is there a mechanism like place value in citta vithi?

ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ T T

If so, mano sankhara can be all of those places. (_ _ _ _ _ _ _)

Vaci sankhara can be from the 3rd place. (X X _ _ _ _ _)

And kaya sankhara can be from the 5th place. (X X X X _ _ _)

B. If the A is true, could the logic of place value also apply in the case of kiriya citta?

ex) AB BC BU PD CV Sam San V _ _ _ _ _ _ _ B B

If so, those cittas which come after the votthapana citta could be grouped together as ‘reaction term‘.

And cittas before the votthapana citta also could be grouped together as ‘input term‘ because they only have mano sankhara.

This is why I am struggling to understand the recent revision.

According to it, the input term is generated by Avyakata PS. But I don’t understand how can one do stuff like walk down the stair (purana kamma) by only mano sankhara. Because mano sankhara is just only experiencing something, not acting.

Thus it’s clear that my analysis(input and reaction) is wrong. Purana kamma is completed before the votthapana citta so that it can be done to act by using those cittas: AB BC BU PD CV Sam San. Then the previous explanation of citta vithi now contradicts the purana kamma concept. If all vipaka citta can have only mano sankhara, there are no vitakka and vicara cetasika in those citta. i.e. vaci sankhara can not arise.

I don’t think that I have a general knowledge enough about this topic to ask a proper question. So I’m afraid I may tire you out of continuing to ask meaninglessly.