Reply To: Jhana and Samapatti


So glad to see points #1 – 6 in the post! It’s additional details and information for me. Some of the materials in those points reminds me of a desana given by Venerable Waharaka Thero given on anicca khayatthena.

In regards to what I have mentioned in this thread and the two questions that I have brought up. I believe now I have mostly figured things out and able to answer my own two questions. It’s possible though that what I’m about to mention might have some gaps of misunderstandings or inconsistencies. If one notice any, you can really help me and us out by bringing them up or correct any possible mistakes that I might have made. Much thanks!

After some contemplation and as of this moment. I now believe that there are no 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhana samapatti, only 4th jhana samapatti.

I asked:

#1. Is there any differences between the samapatti in each of the four jhana’s?

#2. Does one need to attain samapatti in each of the jhana’s before being able to progress to the next jhana or they can still progress to the higher jhana’s without needing to attain samapatti in those jhana’s?

My answer to my question #1. is that there are no 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhana samapatti. If there are no jhana samapatti from 1st to 3rd jhana, than my question #2. is invalid. How did I arrive to such conclusions?

This is something I’m not totally sure about, but thought to bring it up for scrutiny and advice. The definition given for samapatti on SC is “attainment”, while here on PD glossary is “meditative attainment”. If we take the word “attainment” (samapatti) literally, it would sound like 1st jhana “attainment”, 2nd jhana “attainment” and so on. Besides one of the meanings for samapatti is that there are no pancadvara citta vithi that runs through the mind, what if “meditative attainment” (samapatti) also means attaining all the 4 jhana’s or when one is able to enter the 4th jhana at will?

From teaching materials here on Puredhamma:

(“Therefore, the main difference between any samāpatti and jhānā is that jhānā citta do not run continuously. When one is in a jhānā, jhānā citta vithi are interrupted by pañcadvāra citta vithi running in between. Pañcadvāra citta vithi are those coming through the five physical senses. Therefore, when one is in jhānā, one can see, hear, etc.”)

(“But when one is in any samāpatti, corresponding manōdvāra citta vithi runs continuously.”)

At my current understanding, it makes most sense to me that when one is in samapatti, only manodvara citta vithi runs through the mind. Based on this understanding, it doesn’t seem correct to me calling or saying one is in jhana samapatti when there are pancadvara citta vithi’s still running through the mind in any levels of jhana’s.

Why I believe there’s no 1st to 3rd jhana samapatti is due to my belief that in the 3rd jhana, pañcadvāra citta vithi are still running through the mind. What makes me believe that pancadvara citta vithi still flows through the mind in the 3rd jhana is from the jhanic experience in detail post

(“Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness”)

(“Similarly, the great king, the bhikkhu, drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with happiness free from rapture so that this happiness suffuses his entire body. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of a life abstaining from kāma and akusala”)

Although I could be wrong, but seeing the word “happiness”, to me it seems like there’s still body feelings and possibly pancadvara citta vithi still coming in the 3rd jhana.

Now I compare with the 4th jhana description.

(“He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind (one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized”).

(“the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind”)

(“One’s physical body is no longer felt”)

To me, this sounds like no more pancadvara citta vithi runs through the mind and only manodvara citta vithi’s.

(“Initially, only 2-3 jhānā citta vithi flow before a pañcadvāra citta vithi comes in. As one cultivates the jhānā, there will be less and less pañcadvāra citta vithi coming in between successive jhānā citta vithi.”)

(“This point explains why it is so peaceful not to have any citta running through the mind. That is the closest explanation that can be given to an average human as to how having no citta can be so peaceful. But this is hard even to imagine for an average human, as I mentioned at the beginning. Those who cultivate jhānā, and get to higher rupāvacara jhānic and arupāvacara samāpatti states, can start seeing that this is true. That is why they cultivate arupāvacara samāpatti up to the nēva saññā nā saññā state.”)

Based on what I just quoted, I believe and it makes a lot of sense that as one moves up into higher jhana’s. Less and less pancadvara citta vithi’s comes in and finally in the 4th jhana ,all pancadvara citta vithi’s stops and only manodvara citta vithi’s remain and one enters jhana samapatti (4th jhana).

(“Today, many English texts incorrectly label the “higher rupāvacara samāpatti” as the fifth through the eighth jhāna. In the Tipiṭaka, they are labeled as ākāsānañcāyatana, viññāṇañcāyatana, ākiñcaññāyatana, and nevasaññānāsaññāyatana samāpatti.”)

I believe what’s mentioned in the sutta below confirms that 1st to 3rd or 4th jhana? is just “jhana” while the arupa jhana’s are labeled as samapatti?

paṭhamassa jhānassa lābhīti vā dutiyassa jhānassa lābhīti vā tatiyassa jhānassa lābhīti vā catutthassa jhānassa lābhīti vā ākāsānañcāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā viññāṇañcāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā ākiñcaññāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā, ayaṁ kittīti – yaso kitti ca yā pubbe.¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#2.1

I also found some possible additional information on samapatti in the following sutta below that I believe might be relevant, but I don’t fully understand it.¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

Samāpattī”ti ekattatā. Tattha katamā samāpatti? Saññāsamāpatti asaññāsamāpatti, nevasaññānāsaññāsamāpatti. Vibhūtasaññāsamāpatti nirodhasamāpattīti. Ayaṁ vemattatā.

To conclude, I believe the labels given here on Puredhamma for Nirodha samapatti, phala samapatti, jhana, jhana samapatti are accurate / correct and I’m glad to see how it’s differentiate here on Puredhamma. It really helps to clear things up. The issue was that I was mistaken by thinking that there are samapatti in 1st to 3rd jhana.

This is what I’m able to think off for now, please feel free to comment.