Regarding posting long comments: I always use a word processor but it hasn’t seemed to help unfortunately.
To continue the thread:
I will copy-paste Lal’s reply from the other thread as explained in the above two posts:
“Let me state the essence. I will write posts later to explain further.
A. Factors 1 through 6 point to the root causes of dhammā (that bear everything in this world).
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B. Note that there are ” mundane good dhammā” that lead to “better outcomes in this world like rebirths in Deva and Brahma realms. Those fall under puññābhisaṅkhāra.
– Factors 7 through 10 state that Nibbāna (reached via cultivation of paññā) is better than those “mundane good outcomes” which DO NOT last.
C. Let me expand some of Jorg’s explanations.
(1) “chanda mūlakā sabbe dhammā”
– Here chanda includes rupa raga and arupa raga in addition to kama raga.
(2) – (4) Jorg’s explanations are good.
(5) Here, samādhi means “micchā samādhi“.
(6) Here, sati means “micchā sati“, i.e., the opposite of Sammā Sati. In other words, to focus on sensual, jhanic pleasures, etc.
As I wrote above, factors 7 through 10 state that Nibbāna (reached via cultivation of paññā) is better than those “mundane good outcomes” which DO NOT last.
(7) All cetasika (sobhana and asobhana) lead to the extension of the rebirth process. Only when paññā is optimized at the Arahant stage that one becomes free of all suffering. The rest of the factors need to be addressed that way.
(8) Sāra is “essence” or “good”.
(9) ogadhā is to be “immersed in”.
(10) pariyosānā is to end.
” END QUOTE
Thank you Lal, this has been very helpful. It’s much clearer now, especially the miccha sati and samadhi.
Part 1:
Regarding point number 5 – 9:
5. kiṁ pamukhā sabbe dhammā? samādhi pamukhā sabbe dhammā.
6. kiṁ adhipateyyā sabbe dhammā? satādhipateyyā (sati adhipateyyā) sabbe dhammā.
Pamukhā and adhipateyyā are translated (sutta central) as “chief” and “ruler” respectively. Since miccha sati and samdhi is referred to, these meanings still, sort of, fit in (but I’m sure there’s a better description), though the deeper meaning is that they are responsible for the creation of the kamma bija (sabbe dhammā).
7. kiṁ uttarā sabbe dhammā? paññuttarā (paññā uttarā) sabbe dhammā.
So “Uttara” is “better than” then, but that seems like an understatement. “Incomparably better” seems to be more fitting.
Regarding the next two, I’m slightly confused about the structure of the sentences:
8. kiṁ sārā sabbe dhammā’ti? vimutti sārā sabbe dhammā’ti.
9. kiṁ ogadhā sabbe dhammā? amat’ogadhā (amata ogadhā) sabbe dhammā.
If I understand what you said correctly, these sentences mean:
(8) What is the essence that is better than all dhammā? Vimutti is.”
(9) What kind of immersion is/leads to a better (outcome) than all dhammā? Immersion in amata (= Nibbana I assume).”
I’m a bit confused by the structure because the “uttarā” is not present here, unlike number 7 with pañña.
Number 10 speaks for itself. These comments above are all related to this sutta: AN 10.58
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Part 2:
The other sutta in which “Vedanāsamosaraṇā” is used is AN 9.14.
For any other readers, I posted the below in the other thread.
Lal, could you comment on my interpretations?
It starts here:
It’s very similar to the answers given (except the first two), but the questions are related to “sankappavitakka,” not “dhammā” (kamma bīja).
“Kimārammaṇā, (samiddhi), purisassa saṅkappavitakkā uppajjantī”ti?
“Nāmarūpārammaṇā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti?
Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.
After this, it goes on similarly as the other two suttā, shown in bold (but all related to sankappavitakka):
“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti? Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,” etc.
Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but I assume the question means:
Q: “How do miccha sankappa arise after an arammana has come in contact with the sense doors?”
This should be micchā sankappa because we need to free ourselves of wrong thoughts (Micchā Saṅkappa, Apuññabhisaṅkhāra, etc. ) to reach Nibbana.
A: “They arise due to the expectation created (in the kamma viññāṇa by abhisaṅkhāra), which leads to ‘kamma viññāṇa paccaya nāmarūpa’ (in the Paṭicca Samupādda).”
The next part:
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti? Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.
Sutta central translation:
“Where do they become diversified? In the elements.”
Maybe this is something to do with salayatana. (I’m not sure, I don’t know the words in the question).
Because of namarupa, our senses cannot be used objectively and cannot see things for what they truly are. Elements are not merely elements anymore, they become valuable, and one becomes hopeful and delusional due to this nicca perception.
To finish off, to avoid any gaps surrounding the key phrase “Vedanāsamosaraṇā”:
“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti?
Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,”
I assume this means that our defiled thoughts (miccha sankappa, apuññabhisaṅkhāra, etc.) arise because of samphassa.
Then, we start generating samphassa-ja-vedana, which all lead to more and more of similar defiled thoughts (because of taṇhā). These thoughts/sankappa/saṅkhāra are all dependent upon samphassa-ja-vedana. Without it, they (sankhara) won’t arise. (but that means we need to get rid of avijā first, so that we can stop the “avijā paccaya saṅkhāra” step in PS).
“Coming together,” or “converge,” seems a bit less appropriate in this context. Though, in the end, these saṅkhāra create dhammā and eventually get established (automatically) in the kamma bhava.
Lal’s comment: Jorg had a difficulty of completing the post. So, I added the rest of it, which he sent me by email.