Reply To: Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala


Regarding puthujjana’s questions:

“Indeed, after some research, it is true that upasampannassa actually did mean attained, processed of. However, it also have another meaning base on 3 Pali dictionary, which is ordained.”

I guess it could be used that way. But that would be a stretch.
– However, it is really bad to translate “anupasampannassa” as “truthfully”.

But your comments at the end do make sense.
1. Bhikkhu who had not lied regarding their attainment committed pārājika and expel from the community and Bhikkhu who lied regarding their attainment committed only pācittiya?
2. Meaning of bhūta indeed included ghost, but is has other meaning as well, why we should choose ghost in this context and not just “existed” ?”

Just based on the fact that pārājika is the worst offense, it appears that the bhikkhus in the second case (pārājika) the ones who admitted to falsely claiming the attainments.

Since there were just words “bhutam” and “abhutam” there in the two cases, “bhutam” seems to mean “correct” in the sense that “it did materialize”, and “abhutam” means “did not”. As I mentioned earlier, “bhuta” means to “come into existence” (However, as I said there, those bhuta are not stable).
– It would have been helpful if clear-cut words like taccha/ataccha were used to indicate true/false.

We may be able to get more clarity by looking at the use of the words bhutam/abhutam in other situations.

Here is one such example:
Tatiyanibbānapaṭisaṃyutta Sutta (Udāna 8.3):
Evaṃ me sutaṃ— ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anātha¬piṇḍi¬kassa ārāme. Tena kho pana samayena bhagavā bhikkhū nib¬bā¬na¬paṭi¬saṃ¬yuttāya dhammiyā kathāya sandasseti samādapeti samuttejeti sampahaṃseti. Tedha bhikkhū aṭṭhiṃ katvā, manasi katvā, sabbaṃ cetaso samannāharitvā, ohitasotā dhammaṃ suṇanti.
Atha kho bhagavā etamatthaṃ viditvā tāyaṃ velāyaṃ imaṃ udānaṃ udānesi:
“Atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ. No cetaṃ, bhikkhave, abhavissa ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, nayidha jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyetha. Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, atthi ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, tasmā jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyatī”ti

(It is to be noted that translations to other languages are available by clicking on the “hamburger icon” at top left on the menu bar there; but I have seen several incorrect translations like on this topic for the Vinaya rules).

In the above case “abhutam” is used in the “good sense” since it is a description of Nibbana. Here it actually means that Nibbana is not reached via the “formation” of something.
– As we know, patavi, apo,tejo, vayo and anything in “this world” arises via gati (mental energy) as the root cause, and thus are not stable (but Nibbana is).