- This topic has 12 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
The society generally looks down on people that participate in prostitution. In a way, it does seem immoral to treat someone like a commodity for personal pleasure. But having genitals is quite burdening for many people (due to associated sensual desires) and in places like Tokyo for example, many people are lonely and touch deprived which is why they use money to fulfill their desires so they don’t get depressed. From the Dhamma perspective, is it wrong to pay someone for sex?
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
From the Dhamma perspective, it is immoral to pay for sex.
- It is OK to engage in sex with one’s lawful partner. All other activities fall under “sexual misconduct.”
- But bhikkhus are prohibited from engaging in any sexual activity. Anyone who cannot abide by that “Vinaya rule” should not become a bhikkhu.
- We are trapped in the “kama loka” primarily because of our craving for sex. Again, the “pleasure of sex” is “mind-made, even though hard to believe. Also, “the beauty of a woman,” or the “handsomeness of a man,” is not absolute/real; it is a “distorted sanna.” I hope to explain that via Paticca Samuppada in the future. The main ideas are in the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” section.
P.S. See “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“
-
I agree that it is kamma generating, but i’m not sure if it is “immoral”. I thought immoral would mean that it would “hurt others”. In this case it would be a more extreme extent of paying for a massage from someone else, but isit morally wrong? Does this mean that paying for sex has a greater kammic impact than taking drugs? In both cases they trap one to the kamma loka and they are one of the more extreme sense pleasures, but im not sure if we can count both as “immoral”. Also, how does marriage “magically” make the act of sex go from immoral to moral? I would think that the laws of kamma would go beyond the conventional terms set up by people. I am saying all this with the scenario that the person is not married/ has a relationship with anyone. Also, was it not normal to have concubines during the buddha’s time? At most they would be regarded as “excessive” sense pleasures, not sure if the tipitaka says anything about concubines being immoral.
Lal: Again, the “pleasure of sex” is “mind-made, even though hard to believe.
Is the sukha vedana not real? because it is felt by the body. I am referencing this to “Only sensory inputs to the “physical body” can bring sukha or dukkha vedanā directly. ” Vedanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways
-
Pathfinder wrote: “I thought immoral would mean that it would “hurt others”. “
- No. That is the “mundane meaning.”
- “Moral” in Buddha Dhamma has various levels: What you wrote is the first level, which MUST be avoided. The higher levels involve hurting oneself. If one’s actions create conditions that bring future suffering for oneself, those must also be avoided.
- Thus, engaging in sexual activities unacceptable to society is a “papa kamma” or the worst kind; that can lead to rebirths in the apayas. At the next level, sex with one’s lawful partner is “moral” in the mundane sense, but until that desire is removed one cannot get to the Anagami stage.
- See “Pāpa Kamma Versus Akusala Kamma” and “Details of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha.”
Pathfinder asked: “Is the sukha vedana not real?”
- It is real in the sense that our physical bodies are created to provide that feeling
- This is a deeper aspect that will take some time to understand: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)”
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Pathfinder: Also, was it not normal to have concubines during the Buddha’s time?
Sir Lal, King Bimbisāra was a sotāpanna and he enjoyed the service of prostitutes. The most famous story is that of Ambapālikā, a prostitute who became an arahant. King Bimbisāra valued her services so much that he became her main sponsor. She became a nagarvadhu, which means a prostitute only accessible to the nobility. This was completely acceptable in society. I think that’s why Pathfinder has doubts.
- For those who don’t know, Ambapālikā is the only human in this Sasana to be born spontaneously. She did not go through the gandhabba and uterus stage. This is because of her powerful Kusulas.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
My doubts are similar to pathfinder.
It is OK to engage in sex with one’s lawful partner. All other activities fall under “sexual misconduct.”
Doesn’t “misconduct” have to do with activities that can harm others and oneself? Why can’t 2 consenting adults have sex even if not married? Different societies have different views on this issue. In religious communities, it is generally prohibited to have sex before marriage. But it only encourages people to get married early. For example, I went to a Christian college in Iowa and there were many kids who got married before they even graduated. In many Muslim countries, one could get punished for engaging in sexual activities before marriage but it is OK for men to have multiple wives.
To be honest, societal views and what’s considered “lawful” are quite strange. In the United States where I live, Prostitution is illegal in most places. But the porn industry is thriving. It is “lawfully” wrong to pay someone for sex unless they are being recorded which is why sites like Only Fans and Naughty America are “lawful”.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
@Jittananto: Yes. Sotapannas are not Anagamis. A Sotapanna can engage in many akusala kamma, but not apayagami ones.
In my previous comment, I wrote: “Thus, engaging in sexual activities unacceptable to society is a “papa kamma” or the worst kind that can lead to rebirths in the apayas.”
- Per Jittananto’s comment, “King Bimbisāra was a sotāpanna, and he enjoyed the service of prostitutes.” I do not know the truth of that. If it is true, may be prostitution was acceptable to the society where the Buddha lived.
- In this case, it is a grey area. I cannot be certain about it. In general, it depends on one’s mental state when one engages in a sexual act outside the marriage. If society does not look down upon it, one may not generate strong javana citta for it to become an apayagami kamma.
- However, in most cases, societal norms do not come into play.
- Kamma and kamma vipaka are not fully discernible to our minds but only to the mind of a Buddha.
@Taryal: Buddha’s (nature’s) laws differ from mundane ones. As I have tried to explain, it is an entirely different worldview.
- You asked: “Why can’t 2 consenting adults have sex even if not married?”
- Of course, the Buddha did not prohibit anyone from doing anything. It is up to each person to decide how to live their lives. But it is bound to have kammic consequences whether one likes it or not. As I mentioned above, if it is normal in a given society, it may not become a strong kamma because one may not generate strong enough javana citta while engaging in that activity. In cases like this, we cannot be 100% certain.
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
The only bad thing about paying for sex is that you will become addicted to it and you will be reinforcing that pattern in your mind which at the end of the day will slow down progress (if Sotapanna or Sakadagami, there is sutta of Sakadagami having sex with his wife). Paying for sex gives a “thrill” but it’s no different than buying a bottle of alcohol. There are many layers to it, I would not say it’s wrong in terms of Dhamma itself but by understanding Dhamma you will know it will lead somewhere. Drinking here and there may not be bad or a “sin” but it’s a high chance to be a gateway for addiction, once addicted it will be very hard to give up. Most people do not know themselves or their gathi until it’s too late for them.
People who sell sex are often deranged one way or another, often connected criminally – if you have any residue of karma waiting to be ripe and end up with a bad result you increase the chances of getting hurt and suffering, etc. There are many layers to it.
Understanding bigger picture of Dhamma helps see things as they are in much bigger view and depth so it does not become gray area but clarity area I would say
2 users thanked author for this post.
-
There are still derivative aspects to consider regarding harm. The issue is whether the person using such services can be sure that the person having sex for money is not forced to do so by the pimp, it is not known whether the person is not forced by life circumstances into this profession (and actually suffers doing so), it is not known whether the person is fully sane, and so on.
There are a lot of unanswered questions and ignoring such speculations and using the services after all, this falls a bit under what LAL described. I took the liberty of clarifying in a down-to-earth way, adding my three cents.
-
The deeper point is the “joy of sex” is all mind-made.
- But it will take an effort to fully comprehend that.
- See “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” I will try simplifying that in the new section: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- One should get there gradually: “Transition to Noble Eightfold Path.”
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
Sir, was there anything about how to cope, being on the path, having a partner? I am fortunate that mine is also following the Dhamma path so we will extinguish these natural instincts mutually but in general it would be useful for people to know how to deal with these instincts (which are also so strongly determined by biology, genes, to reproduce, cellular proliferation even…).
PS. By the way, Mr. Lal – I have no words to express my gratitude for what you are doing and for this priceless gift of Dhamma!
-
My 2 cents on this.
Let’s say that we are talking about a single male, I wonder if the real issue behind the question is something like this:
One’s kama raga (in this case sex) is particularly strong that one needs to seek a relief through:
(i) Going where prostitution is legal to relieve oneself.<br /><br />
(ii) Having sex with another consenting, non-attached adult who is not one’s stable partner.<br /><br />
etc. other situations in the kind of “gray area” like above.One does the above to “scratch an itch” that has become too much, otherwise one may commit something more serious, such as rape.
<br /><br />
If this is the case, then the “benefit” is a bit of a thrill, which is fleeting, but the downside is too grave, and I can think of just a few:(1) It’s easily addicting, as Christian pointed out. This itch does not go away with the above activities; instead it comes back stronger, and it may lead one into “grayer” areas with time.
(2) As Nibbid83 said, there are derivative circumstances concerning the person accepting money for sex we are not aware of. What if we are aiding to perpetuate such an “industry”, further harming people in it.
(3) Harm to ourselves — the most serious one, leading ourselves away from nibbana. Not only that, according Sir Lal, this may be apayagami kamma.
<br /><br />
So, how does we cope with it? As a puthujjana, I don’t know, but I have found this very helpful, and I can vouch that nirāmisa sukha is real:Three Kinds of Happiness – What is Nirāmisa Sukha?
There are 3 kinds of happiness, and sex is an example of sāmisa sukha, which is too short-lived. Convince the mind of a more stable happiness — nirāmisa sukha — and it will wean itself off sāmisa sukha.
<br /><br />
Best of luck to anyone going through this! This is a tough one. Anyone with ideas — especially anagamis — please chime in.<br /><br />
Lang -
There is my gym mate who does these things, he goes to the prostitutes.
Initially he was telling me that it’s so good and so beautiful girls are there.
But later I heard him talking to someone about how even this no longer giving the same pleasure.
He has realised a bit that it’s so much stress to go there and pay only for a few minutes of pleasure.
So all these things are Anicca. One would realise that if one is wise enough.
1 user thanked author for this post.
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.