Pannavimutti and the Rebirth Process

This is a question I often ask myself too; Other than believing in Buddha desana, is there another way? For me, the cooling down process started when I became a mother,however it was not due to my understanding of Anichcha nature of the sense-gratification, which I got to know since my retirement, very accidentally while I was trying to educate myself about my religion by reading and listening to Buddhist literature. I always had a sober way of life for ethical reasons, and brought up my children in a similar way, but never believed in rebirth simply due to the increasing animal and human population in the world.
Commercializations of animal husbandry means, millions of animals all over the world due to the human greed.Then comes the question of protozoans, their replication through binary fission and so on… . These and many other questions I had in my mind, however, I am about 50% there, because of my faith in Buddha who had seen things beyond what science has discovered. I still have the question you have posted.

Lot of important questions.

“How does one that is liberated through wisdom come to understand the rebirth process if they don’t develop the divine eye or other abhinna power to observe it?”

One gains wisdom not by seeing previous births, but by seeing the anicca nature. One can see the anicca nature of this life itself.
– However, not believing in the rebirth process is a micca ditthi, and thus makes it impossible to see the anicca anture; see, “Micca Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sotapanna Stage“.

“Is there some sort of indirect evidence that becomes apparent as one practices Satipatthana?”

Satipattahana is the way to be mindful and to discard bad vaci sankhara; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
– Please also read the Satipatthana sutta in the “Sutta Interpretations” section.

“..but never believed in rebirth simply due to the increasing animal and human population in the world.”

This is also very important to clarify. Living beings include not only humans and animals, but beings in all 31 realms; see, “31 Realms Associated with the Earth“.
– There are basically an infinite number beings in all 31 realms. Fluctuations in human and animal populations are compensated by births/deaths in other realms.

Please ask questions on anything that is not clear. These are VERY important issues to resolve.

Also see: “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception“.

Hi all,

I believe I’m a panna-dominant person, I never believe in anything unless I can experience or logical derive it by myself, I love astrophysics so much that when I was 11 or 12 I learn almost anything relate to physics and the universe. But when the first time I read about Theravada, I was impress by the Buddha, and the more I read about his teachings I cannot turn my head back, it’s so logical and practical, transcend all of my current knowledges, all of my biggest questions about life answered in Dhamma, but there is something that block my progress, that the wrong interpretations of Tilakkhana, after know about this site, my progress was skyrocket. So let me share my own process to derive about why I know that the rebirth process must be true despite never have any of the experiences regard to abhinna.

Everything that exist is due to causes. When a being die, unless he’s an Arahant, then there must be some form of force to have cause him to reappear due to his past abhisankhara. Then the rebirth process must be true. Then, the variety of beings or how their behaviors are decided is due to their kamma. I just thought simple like this, and I was able to be sure that the rebirth process must be true, no need for any evidences or experiences.

I know that it takes people a hard time to comprehend some Dhamma concepts due to their current gati and the level of kilesa in their mind.

So, just continue to keep an open mind, never stop learning and comprehending pure Dhamma, apply real world examples to clarify the concept that you’re trying to learn, practice Satipathanna diligently, your mind will be clearer day by day and you will able to know that the rebirth process or any concepts of the Buddha Dhamma must be the truth, because they are perfectly inter-consistent, they support each other, so be sure to revisit old post once awhile.

I did not know Tien has a physics background. I am not sure whether you have seen the section: “Quantum Mechanics and Dhamma“.

Not many people are interested in that section, because not many have a physics background.

My own experience was that the nature of the Anichcha, dukka, Anatta related to sense pleasures can be understood without referring to rebirth. In fact I had some sort of exhilaration, like a Eureka moment when I found the real meaning of Thilakkana, at a time “rebirth” was in my ” partially believed, but needs to investigate” list.

There is no problem in understanding the occupants of 31 realms; I believe in opapatika births. Does it mean that the number of beings in the 31 realms is a constant and only the forms will change by transition within the 31 realms? When human and animal populations go higher, will there be a decrease in number of beings in other realms keeping the total number somewhat constant? (I would assume that the number of arahants leaving the cycle be smaller). Within the animal realm itself there will be transition from one form to another, however all animal populations seem to be increasing.

I also understand the gandhabba concept and its relationship with a womb or with an egg, and I do not doubt it. What I am trying to understand is the following.

When I say animals, it includes the whole of animal kingdom. Humans can increase the animal population by farming vigorously and breeding selectively for the purpose thereby changing the nature and the natural instinct of animals. In such a situation, are we to understand it as a Kamma vipaka for those populations of animals? Will it affect the gathi of the animals when living under unfavorable conditions such as in restricted spaces and cages? Then, when, for example animals are slaughtered, often they can see and feel death and naturally it will affect the chutipatisandi moment.

Since humans have the control of certain animal populations can I also assume that there will be countless number of gandhabbas are waiting to get in to the wombs of those animals?
The other question is about lower animals like protozoans; their reproduction is by binary fission.
Then there are animals like Euglena ( also, reproduce by binary fission) that shows characteristics of plants as well, and known as an alga too, can be cultured in a micro-aquarium; there are so many research experiments done on these and other animals and the humans have the control in managing their population. They are also grown commercially for food. What will there rebirth be like?
These questions may sound ridiculous as they may not help the path, but as Buddha said in Kalama sutra, I like to think and clear these for myself as biology is still part of my work. However,I am still at the very beginning of the pure dhamma path, but very much addicted to it. Any help and advice is much appreciated.

Answers to Mahendran’s questions are embedded in the following statement itself:
“Since humans have the control of certain animal populations can I also assume that there will be countless number of gandhabbas are waiting to get in to the wombs of those animals?”

Yes. There are essentially an innumerable animal gandhabbas in the para loka waiting for suitable conditions to be born.

There are also many, many more human gandhabbas waiting for suitable wombs than those with human bodies like us. We can get a rough idea of how many gandhabbas must be waiting for a womb, because in between births in rebirth stories is several years, and in some cases many years. This is why one needs to be grateful to one’s parents for proving that rare opportunity.

The world is much more complex than we can even imagine. The following video gives an idea of the complexity:
There are as many creatures on your body as there are people on Earth!

My understanding of the rebirth process was even before Buddha Dhamma (but I was interested in vedas and upanishads) I realized rebirth process true observing natural phenomena like plants giving up seeds and from that seed new life appeared when those conditions was applicable for them which I woke up to understanding of rebirth process. We can deduce all micca ditthi by observing natural way. I had also encounters with spirits or ghost I guess so for me it was pretty natural to not having micca ditthi even before attending Pure Buddha Dhamma.