Video that proposes deeper meanings of Tilakkhana

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    • #55522
      DhammaSponge
      Participant

      Chaos and Order

      Given that this channel was recommended to me on this website for a source of dhamma talks, I am still working with the “deeper meanings” of Tilakkhana, as it is put here.  

      Anicca, tersely defined, is the inability to keep things as we like. The “deeper meaning,” per the video, is that the “natural order” of nature is chaos. Things that seem ordered to us (even though there isn’t intrinsically a right or a wrong order in the grand scheme of things) will tend towards disorder, as per the second law of thermodynamics. We could thus think of icca as an expectation that things can and ought to be always ordered a certain away, as opposed to the countless microstate configurations available in disorder. We could also think about nicca as our tendency to fix objects as static entities, while anicca emphasizes that all configurations of rupa are non-fixed processes subject to cause and effect. 

      Dukkha, tersely defined, is that there is a hidden suffering in things that we see as pleasure. The video proposes that dukkha is actually an extension of the second law of thermodynamics: if order is to be maintained in the way we like it, work must be expended to maintain it. We create objects or configurations of rupa, for example, because there is a necessity for these things. But necessity, per the Bhante, is rooted in ignorance, and that is why the object not only exists, but can also exist in many subtle variations for the enjoyment of the six sense bases. 

      Anatta, tersely defined, is the helplessness through the rebirth process if one is to view objects as nicca and sukkha nature. Now, I know that it has been emphasized multiple times here that anatta is not about simply “no self,” yet it is regardless emphasized by the Bhante that although there isn’t a true self, the sense of a self still exists. Since all five aggregates exist- be it on the scale of seconds or eons- to fulfil a necessity (dukkha), the sense of self is no different. To fulfill the need of continual existence, the mind performs abisankhara and creates the sense of a self, in the same sense that a woman that miscarried continues taking care of her child even though it no longer exists. 

      I guess what is meant is that this dynamically changing sense of self exists more or less until Arahanthood, and that’s why it is worth considering that considering the five clinging aggregates are not “me” or “mine.”

      Thoughts? 

       

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    • #55525
      Jittananto
      Participant

      Sādhu Sādhu Sādhu 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿 Is very well explained, my friend !

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    • #55529
      Jaro
      Participant

      I believe this is a legitimate way to understand Anicca. Order and chaos are not intrinsic properties of any object. In physics, we describe disorder in terms of entropy: a gas has higher entropy than a liquid, and a liquid has higher entropy than a solid. Yet none of these states is inherently “better” or “worse.” They simply arise from different causes and conditions — that’s it.

      There are many ways to contemplate Anicca:

      • Everything unfolds according to cause and effect, not according to our wishes.
      • The nature of the world cannot fulfill the desires we direct towards it.
      • Think of a desert, a sandcastle, a dry bone, or a pile of garbage.

      What matters most is that Anicca always carries with it a tone of frustration and stress, because our desires are inevitably disappointed over time.

      There are three categories of Dukkha, all of which describe forms of suffering that can be eliminated by relinquishing attachment to worldly things:

      • Dukkha-Dukkha: Immediate suffering that arises as the direct consequence of harmful actions.
      • Viparinama-Dukkha: The pain that comes when something precious inevitably comes to an end.
      • Sankhara-Dukkha: The ceaseless effort and strain we invest in trying to recreate the causes and conditions of pleasure.

      Among these, Sankhara-Dukkha is considered the most dangerous form of suffering.

      Anatta also carries a range of interpretations, depending on context. It can mean:

      • The unsubstantial nature of worldly pleasure — once it’s over, nothing remains but a fading memory.
      • The absence of refuge in the world — where there is suffering, there can be no safety.
      • The futility of all efforts to find lasting fulfillment within this world.

      Ultimately, the Three Marks of Existence serve as arguments for gradually diminishing our attachment to worldly pleasures until it finally disappears altogether.

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    • #55530
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Jaro wrote: “Sankhara-Dukkha: The ceaseless effort and strain we invest in trying to recreate the causes and conditions of pleasure. – Among these, Sankhara-Dukkha is considered the most dangerous form of suffering.”

      • Yes. Sankhara-Dukkha applies to every sensory input for a puthujjana
      • The mind of a puthujjana gets into the kama loka with any sensory input and at least generates kama sankappa in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. Even if the mind does not proceed to the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, subtle/weak kamma are done with kama sankappa.
      • That is a clear expression of ‘anicca nature’ and can be seen in the following chart.

      P.S. It is called Sankhara-Dukkha because of the ‘sankhara generation’ in panupadanakkhandha accumulation (or equivalently, the initiation of Paticca Samuppada process.)

      • Avijja paccaya sankhara” is how kamma accumulation (a Paticca Samuppada process) starts.
      • That starts automatically in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage with the automatic generation of kama sankappa.
      • This reply was modified 12 hours ago by Lal.
      • This reply was modified 11 hours ago by Lal.
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    • #55539
      Jaro
      Participant

      Lal, you wrote that the mind of a Puthujjana is ALWAYS moving in the direction of vipariṇāma. So, essentially, their minds can only become more and more defiled.

      This means that an ordinary person, a Puthujjana, is swept away by the flood and has no real power to resist it. They lack the means to fight against it, for they have no understanding of the Tilakkhana, the Noble Truths, or the process of rebirth.

      But what about a Sotāpanna—or someone who at least knows the Dhamma and strives to put it into practice (Saddhānusārī or Dhammānusārī)—when they find themselves in a Nava Kamma stage?

      If I understand correctly, such a person would apply the Dhamma. They would contemplate the nature of anicca, dukkha, and anatta and use that understanding to push back against the current. In doing so, they move away from “Aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi” and direct their mind toward Nibbāna.

    • #55540
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Moving to the ‘purana kamma‘ stage happens depending on the number of samyojana that remain intact. In the following, we will consider a human in kama loka.

      • A puthujjana enters the ‘purana kamma‘ stage with all ten samyojana intact. Thus, the likelihood of getting to the ‘nava kamma‘ stage is high.  
      • A Sotapanna enters the ‘purana kamma‘ stage with seven samyojana intact. Thus, a Sotapanna’s mind will still move in the  “Aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi” direction. However, the likelihood of reaching the ‘nava kamma‘ stage is lower, since he has three fewer samyojana intact. A Sotapanna’s mind does not attach with the three ditthi samyojana (i.e., with ‘wrong views’). That is why a Sotapanna is incapable of doing ‘apayagami kamma.’
      • An Anagami will not enter the ‘purana kamma‘ stage even though he has five samyojana intact. An Anagami has eliminated the five samyojana that bind one to the kama loka; therefore, he will not generate ‘kama sankkappa to attach to the ‘kama sanna‘ in the ‘kama dhatu‘ stage. Thus, an Anagami‘s mind will stay in the ‘kama dhatu‘ stage.  See, for example, “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment.”
      • The above statements (for an Anagami) also hold for an Arahant, of course. In addition, an Arahant‘s mind will not enter rupa loka or arupa loka either, since it has eliminated all ten samyojana. See “Loka and Nibbāna (Aloka) – Complete Overview.”

      I recommend reading those posts carefully. Feel free to ask questions. This is what is needed to become a Sotapanna.

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