[Yash RS]

I have been struggling with this topic lately. Please clarify.

In the Post “Buddhist Theory of Matter – Fundamentals“

“6. The four components of vaṇṇa, gandha, rasa, oja get incorporated into suddhāṭṭhaka because of the craving for sense experiences.

For example, the “rasa” component originates from our craving for tasty foods. Thus, greedy thoughts based on the taste of honey, for example, would create suddhāṭṭhaka , leading to the availability of honey. Honey would have a dominant presence of the rasa component; since it is a liquid, it would also have a significant apo component.

In another example, a cake or a ripened fruit would have significant rasa, gandha, and pathavi components.”

What exactly are these components? 

Do they include Colours, smells, tastes? 

But these things are not present in the matter. So is colour, taste and smell a Sanna or it’s a part of the external world? You have written that Honey contains a significant amount of Rasa component? What is this? Sweetness? But isn’t sweetness a mental / bodily perception?

The same thing is also mentioned in Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf 

Page 246 of the Manual states the following 

“Material phenomena that are inseparable: The four great essentials and four derivatives—colour, smell, taste, and nutritive essence— are known as inseparable matter because they are always bound together and are present in all material objects from the simplest to the most complex.”

So it seems that all these words suggest that Colours smells tastes are present in the matter itself. But Science says otherwise.

So what’s the role of Sanna then?

Please clear this confusion 🙏🏻 

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Yes. This is a somewhat complex subject. 

1. One way to start is to consider how a given object (say, a red apple) is perceived (with sanna) by different species. An apple is the same object, but is perceived differently by a human and a lion, for example.

• A human perceives an apple to taste good. But lions do not eat apples; they do not perceive it to be desirable. The “rasa component” in an apple is the same regardless. The only difference is that the sense faculty of taste in a human is different from that of a lion. That “matching” happens via Paticca Samuppada. I have discussed how cows prefer the taste of grass, while humans do not. There is a “rasa component” in grass that matches the “taste faculty in a cow” to provide an attractive sensation.
• One’s sense faculties are designed according to the “gati” that led to that type of birth. A lion’s birth results from violent deeds, and that birth is designed to live by killing. The birth as a “hungry ghost” (peta or pretha) results from “stingy gati” or greediness. It is a complex subject, but that is the basic idea.
• All living beings and the environment in which they live arise through Paticca Samuppada. 

2. The physical body of a given living being (human, lion, cow, etc.) incorporates details that we cannot even start to fathom. 

• Let us consider ‘color.’ There are no colors embedded in any object. However, the “vanna” component in the object can cause it to appear in a certain way to a specific species. We see a red apple as red. But some animals do not see in colors. Bats do not “see” with eyes. They navigate by monitoring sound reflections. You can search and read about it.
• The color of an object (as seen by a human) depends on the light reflected by that object, and also the specific sensors in the eyes of a human. That is the “matching” that happens via Paticca Samuppada. A lion’s eyes may not have the same type of sensors. A bat does not have “eyes with color seeing ability.”
• The following video can help understand the basics of color vision.

• Let me stop here for now. Think about the above and then ask further questions as needed.

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Jittananto, Yash RS

[Yash RS]

So now we can say that every thing has the three components of vanna gandha and Rasa but individual species’ bodies would then further create the Sanna that is required for them?

Insects like to eat rotten stuff, but we humans can’t eat it. That rotten food also has the Rasa component but it’s not compatible with our bodies but is with the insect’s bodies?

So A Tasty Sanna would be felt by the insects but an Awful Sanna would be felt by us humans.

Same with the other components?

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Yes. You got the basic idea!

• The sanna generated depends on both the specific species (human, lion, cow, insect, etc.) and the external object.
• All of these are made with suddhatthaka, which consists of eight components: pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, gandha, rasa, and oja. See “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
• It is the matching of those pairs that provides specific sanna for a specific species.

[Yash RS]

https://youtu.be/bapkyxrWd5Y?si=G8iUZtfkU2WCaWVD

In this Video Waharaka thero says that the Devas Extract the Scent from the fruits and distribute among themselves. So if a fruit generates a positive Sanna in humans, then why it also generates the same in the Devas? I know that even monkeys like fruits just like us but why is it so with the Devas? They don’t have a physical body to eat the fruit and gain nutrition so why do they experience good Sanna for these things?

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Yash wrote: ” I know that even monkeys like fruits just like us but why is it so with the Devas? They don’t have a physical body to eat the fruit and gain nutrition so why do they experience good Sanna for these things?”

• These must be Devas in the lowest realm. They live among us, i.e., on the Earth’s surface, unlike higher Deva realms far above. There is not much information about them in the suttas, so we don’t know enough details. They probably have physical bodies denser than other Devas, but subtler than ours.

P.S. Note that it does not say they eat fruits; they absorb the aroma of fruits. Even those Devas do not have a digestive system like ours. They just absorb the aroma.

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Yash RS, Jittananto

[Yash RS]

So it means that we have never really experienced the external world in its absolute form? 

We only perceive the external world in our own ways. So we have never really seen, smelt, tasted, touched and heard any external thing? It’s just how we perceive the world?

 

 

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Jittananto

[Lal]

“So it means that we have never really experienced the external world in its absolute form? “

• Yes. Even though that is how the world operates (to provide the “distorted sanna“), that operation is ultimately based on a deeper reality, rooted in Paticca Samuppada. 
• That is why Buddha Dhamma is called “paramatta Dhamma,” where “parama atta” means “ultimate truth.”

_____________

“So we have never really seen, smelt, tasted, touched and heard any external thing?”

• No. As I mentioned above, even Arahants, or the Buddha himself, perceived the world in this way, because the external world and our bodies are designed this way via Paticca Samuppada. They also taste honey to be sweet, or a particular woman to be attractive compared to others, for example. However, their minds have fully comprehended how that “distorted” perception (sanna) originates and thus do not attach to it. 
• This is the issue to be grasped to understand Buddha’s teachings at the deepest level. I have been trying to explain this for the past three years in several different ways.
• Everyone knows that avijja (ignorance) means “not to comprehend the Four Noble Truths, or alternatively, Paticca Samuppada.” This is where one can truly understand them and start dispelling the remaining avijja and the tendency to attach to the “distorted” perception (sanna). 
• This “distorted” perception (sanna) is so deeply embedded in our minds that even after “seeing it” at a basic level (at the Sotapanna stage), it takes an effort to overcome it. That is where one needs to cultivate the second stage of Satipatthana (“kama sanna,” which is the “distorted sanna” relevant to kama loka, is overcome at the Anagami stage). I have provided an overview in the current post: “Satipaṭṭhāna – What Does It Mean?“

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jennydo, Jittananto, Yash RS

[Lal]

I am beginning to think that a main reason that many people have difficulty in understanding the “distorted sanna” (“kama sanna,” in kama loka) could be one of the following two reasons: 

1. They had not realized that for “distorted sanna” to arise, not only must living beings’ bodies (both manomaya kaya and the physical body) but also the external world must arise via Paticca Samuppada.
2. Some may have seen #1 above in my explanations, but they cannot believe it to be true.

I am glad that Yash asked the above questions. His questions made me realize the possibilities mentioned above. If those are relevant issues, please let me know, and I can provide further clarification. If you have doubts, the only way to proceed is to get them clarified. 

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jennydo, Jittananto, Yash RS

[Lal]

The new post will hopefully be helpful to clear the above issues:

Paṭicca Samuppāda Creates the External World, Too!

• Feel free to ask questions to clarify any remaining issues.

 

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Jittananto

[Christian]

I would say it is wrong to think about the world in absolute terms, as in this question “So it means that we have never really experienced the external world in its absolute form? ” – Dhamma may be absolute. Still, sansara is not at least in terms of the physical world, as something we can experience in an absolute way; this adds a layer that is not needed. Therefore, one should not think or see that as there is a point in trying to experience an absolute external world because it’s not there. 

Absolute in Dhamma = Nibbana, Absolute in Sansara = Ignorance 

[Lal]

It is good to contemplate the question: “So it means that we have never really experienced the external world in its absolute form? ”

• The world we experience is exactly the way it is supposed to be (i.e., supposed to arise via Paticca Samuppada).
• Until the death of their physical bodies, Arahants also live in that world in their daily lives (because their physical bodies also arose via Paticca Samuppada). They experience the same saññā as a puthujjana. For example, they taste honey to be sweet or a rose to smell good. The world is designed (via Paticca Samuppada) to provide such (distorted) saññā.
• However, such a world only provides an illusion of sukha in the ultimate reality. The “taste of honey” is what keeps us bound to the sansara (rebirth process). An Arahant has fully grasped that, and thus is not fooled by that taste to attach to it. See posts related to this issue, such as “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā),” “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on “Distorted Saññā”,” etc.
• Since they no longer attach to those sukha vedana (which are illusions in ultimate reality but are “real” in the mundane sense),  minds of Arahants no longer initiate new Paticca Samuppada processes, i.e., no “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” and thus no bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti.” That is the end of suffering!
• It can be said that avijjā is not realizing how attachment arises via (distorted) saññā, which in the kāma loka is kāma saññā.

P.S. One realizes how san (raga, dosa, moha) arise via kāma saññā when becoming a “Sandiṭṭhiko“: “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?.”

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