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Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta
Regarding vipaka citta: dhammā can also come as vipaka to the mind (mano indriya) and generate mano vipaka vinnana. Is that missing in the description?MN 148
cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpē ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ,
sōtañca paṭicca saddē ca uppajjāti sōtaviññāṇaṃ,
ghānañca paṭicca gandhē ca uppajjāti ghānaviññāṇaṃ ,
jivhañca paṭicca rasē ca uppajjāti jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
kāyañca paṭicca phōṭṭhabbē ca uppajjāti kāyaviññāṇaṃ,
manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ -
This is a good question. I need to think about this further.
In the book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” Bhikkhu Bodhi has listed these cittas on p. 43. That is the same as what I have in the post.
– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).If anyone has any ideas, please post.
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Yes. The “mind-door adverting” citta (M) corresponds to the “five-door adverting” citta (F) in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book.
Those two cittas correspond to PD and MV citta in my post on citta vithi:
“Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”But that does not resolve the issue. Does it?
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“– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).”
Is the following an example of this situation (this happens to me from time to time):
I may be washing the dishes when a memory comes to mind of something I said or did that offended someone; I then felt bad about that action and wished that I hadn’t done it.
That memory (a dhamma) and the resulting bad feeling involve just the mana indriya. Is that right?
Lang
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Lal, I think that is the solution as explained in the manual: “... its function then is to advert to the object appearing at the mind door. ...”
Based on that mind door input the mind has to deside how to react. The difference to the pancadvara resultant cittas is that the mind door adverting citta is only functional (not kusala/not akusala).
The process is explained on page 163 in the Bhikkhu Bodhi manual.
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1. First I want to make a comment on the discussion between Lang and Tobias.
Here we need to make a distinction between “recalling past memory” and a “dhammā coming to the mind”.
– Recalling a past memory (namagotta with no kammic energy) REQUIRES us making an effort to recall that memory.
– On the other hand, a dhammā can come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. A dhammā has kammic energy.
– That is important to understand.Therefore, a memory of a friend cannot just come to the mind by itself (via namagotta).
– It was probably initiated by a dhammā coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka. In response, one may recall other related memories.2. My second comment is on the original issue: How does a kamma vipaka come DIRECTLY to the mind-door (as a dhammā)? That is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (or my posts).
– This may be what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to explain on p. 164 at the bottom of the page:
“(2) An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six sense objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process..”
– The end of the above statement refers to the fact that each five-door sense detection (with a citta vithi of 17 citta) is ALWAYS followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. I have not discussed this in my posts, I believe.
– So, by “An independent mind-door process” he probably means a sense detection initiated without coming through the five sense-doors, i.e., a mind-door process initiated by a dhammā coming directly to the mind-door. But his explanation is not clear. He is quoting Ledi Sayadaw’s speculation, I believe. No reference to the Tipitaka is given.
– So, the original question remains unanswered so far (unless I missed something in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s explanation). -
Understanding the Mental Objects (Dhammārammaṇa) may helps:
In the CMA (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) page 136 it gives the details of Mental Object as below:
Mental object is sixfold: Each of the first five objects can be cognized in any of these ways: (1) through its own respective sense-door process; (2) through a mind-door process; and (3) by the process-freed cittas occurring in the roles of rebirth-linking, bhavaṅga, and death. Mental objects—the objects of the sixth class—cannot be cognized at all through a sense-door process. They can be cognized only by the cittas of a mind-door process or by the process-freed cittas that occur independent of the sense doors.
Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object (dhammārammaṇa).
1. Sensitive matter (pasādarūpa) is the sensory receptive substance in the five sense organs; it is fivefold, eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, nose-sensitivity, tongue-sensitivity, and body-sensitivity. [All sensory inputs are resultant (vipāka).]
2. Subtle matter (sukhumarūpa) includes sixteen species of material phenomena enumerated below (VI, §6), among them the water element.
3. Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings.
4. The fifty-two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind-door process, as for example, when one becomes aware of one’s feelings, volitions, and emotions.
5. Nibbāna becomes the object of cittas occurring in the mental processes of noble individuals, both trainees and Arahants.
6. Concepts —the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense—also fall into the category of mental object.With mettā, Seng Kiat
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From the same link Tobias posted
“None of the vipāka citta has any unwholesome roots (greed, hate, delusion); of course, they also do not have the wholesome roots. Thus they are called rootless (ahētuka) citta.”
#1. Are all vipaka citta’s rootless without exceptions? From what I can understand right now, is yes, all vipaka citta’s are rootless.
#2. Are there any “possibilities” that “before a citta completes it’s 9 stages of change”, can change from kamma vipaka to kamma with karmic energy or before it get’s to the vinnanakkhanda stage?
#3. Is pabhassara citta a vipaka citta? If it is, maybe we can gain some clues on the question “How does a kamma vipaka come DIRECTLY to the mind-door (as a dhammā)? Possibly by looking into how Arahants experiences pabhassara citta, or how does the pabhassara citta go directly to the mind-door as dhamma to an Arahant, continuously experiencing it without the citta contaminating pass the citta stage and evolving to vinnanakhhanda? What would the process or mechanism be based on the abhidhamma? (This is one of the things that I have been contemplating on). I could be wrong about this, but for some reason I have this feeling that if we can answer this question in accordance to the dhamma. We can clarify some of the teachings in the abhidhamma and provide more explanations on what we might have missed or not explained completely in the Tipitaka.
I’m currently not 100% sure on the 3 questions. I also asked because I feel it can be relevant to our current discussion.
I also thought of how we can look to how arupa brahmins interact with dhamma since they only have the hadaya vatthu.
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Tobias wrote:
“The reply from Seng Kiat should give the answer: all six are called dhammārammaṇa. Thus it is clear, that a dhammā is cognized by the mind door process with a manodvaravajjanacitta.”It is quite clear that a dhammā is cognized by the mind-door process with a manodvaravajjana citta.
– I thought your original question was why that process is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) book or in my post that you quoted.Regarding the comments by the TripleGemStudent:
The following posts could be helpful: “How Are Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?” and “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”
– Those are a bit deep.
– A vipaka vinnana, arising with a cakkhu vinnana for example, does not have consciously-made lobha, dosa, moha. However, that citta also goes through the 9-step process and thus one’s gati are incorporated. I think that is the simplest answer to your questions. -
No, my question was regarding your post Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta.
You may add to #4 that it is about akusala vipaka citta. The manodvaravajjana citta is just functional. Or you may mention it that way.
I think it is remarkable that there is no akusala vipaka directly via the mind door or via dhammā. That means only coarser rupa can give akusala/kusala vipaka (coarser than namarupa/dhammā).
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Tobias: Your question (as I understood) is related to BOTH my post and Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA as I explained above.
You wrote: “I think it is remarkable that there is no akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā.”
– That is exactly the issue in my mind.
– Is it not possible that an akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā?
– I think it is not only possible but necesssary. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, a vipaka bring the next bhava can come through any of the six senses. How does an arupavacara Brahma grasp the next bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment? He has only the mind-door. -
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The statement on p. 138 of CMA:
“The object of the door-freed consciousness in any given existence is generally identical with the object of the last cognitive process in the immediately preceding existence..”Where does that “last cognitive process” comes in (for an arupavacara Brahma)?
– For a human, it can come through the five physical senses as well. -
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Tobias wrote: “No, a door freed citta performs the rebirth linking for every being.”
A citta DOES NOT perform rebirth linking.
– In the last citta vithi, at the fifth javana, creates the javana power to make the MINDSET (temporary bhavanga) for the kammic energy to create the next bhava. The “temporary bhavanga” is explained at: “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavaṅga” and “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!”
– Creation of the manomaya kaya i.e., the hadaya vatthu and any appropriate pasada rupa) is NOT done by a citta. It is done by kammic energy (that is why “gandhabba kaya” or “manomaya kaya” is a “kammaja kaya”).I cannot explain it any more than this right now. I need to finish the next post. But feel free to comment or raise questions.
– You and others can continue the discussion if needed. I will comment whenever I can. -
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I want to try to write what I think to your discussion.
On page 43 in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, he lists the unwholesome-resultant cittas, the wholesome- resultant cittas and the functional cittas that comprise all the rootless cittas.
In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article. Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.
I think the name for these is referring to their function, as in “receiving consciousness” does the job of “receiving” in a Citta vitthi. But not necessarily, I think, because there is a list at page 127, that you also refer to already, where it is explained in more detail.
The same holds for the wholesome-vipakas, here there is a whole-some vipaka citta called “investigating consciousness” (with equanimity, and also with joy).
I think the citta that you refer to in this discussion should be the citta Nr. 19 (unwholesome investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity) as well as citta number 26 (wholesome investigating consciousness acc. by equanimity).
On page 127, it is shown that these two cittas can perform the function of “Rebirth, bhavanga, death”. Since the bhavanga state is not equal to the bhavanga citta, and the former is not a citta but the latter is (that is why Asanna does not have any citta arising except for the last moments) here what Bhikkhu Bodhi means with “bhavanga” as a function we can understand it as the “Arrest bhavanga” and “Vibrational bhavanga” which are cittas that preceed the Mind-Door Adverting consciousness “M” in a Mind-Door Process, see page 166.
I appreciate your feedback on this idea.
Best wishes,
Daniel -
Comments by Daniel:
Daniel: “In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article.”
– Yes. They are also listed on p. 43 Table 1.3 in CMA (book by Bhikkhu Bodhi).
– There 5 more for wholesome-vipaka listed in the same Table.
– All those come through the 5 physical senses.Daniel: “Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.”
– Those are NOT the initial vipaka citta. They are two cittas that follow the vipaka citta in a citta vithi with 17 citta representing a sense input coming through the 5 physical senses; see. p. 155 of CMA.
– So, those two citta are NOT vipaka citta initiating a manodvara process.What I am saying is that there is no citta on Table 1.3 representing a vipaka citta coming through the manodvara.
– If you look at the 6 processes that Tobias posted in his first post at the top of this thread:
cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpē ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ,
sōtañca paṭicca saddē ca uppajjāti sōtaviññāṇaṃ,
ghānañca paṭicca gandhē ca uppajjāti ghānaviññāṇaṃ ,
jivhañca paṭicca rasē ca uppajjāti jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
kāyañca paṭicca phōṭṭhabbē ca uppajjāti kāyaviññāṇaṃ,
manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃthere is no vipaka citta representing the 6th process that I highlighted above in Table 1.3.
– That is the issue to tackle.
– By the way, my post that Tobias referred to does not address that either. I just did not notice it at the time. -
On page 127, you can see that “investigating consciousness” does not only perform the function of “investigating” inside a CV, but also the function of Bhavanga, which might be what we are looking for, because this is the citta that precedes the functional “Manodvara citta” inside a Minddoor process, and also it is a resultant (vipaka).
What do you think?
Page 127 should explain it. -
“On page 127, you can see that “investigating consciousness” does not only perform the function of “investigating” inside a CV, but also the function of Bhavanga, which might be what we are looking for..”
-No. We are looking for a manodvara vipaka citta.
– That would correspond to the “eye-consciousness” etc. that come through the five physical senses as vipaka. You see those five listed in the Table on p. 43.P.S. Bhavanga is “state of the mind” at a given time. It is not a citta. I have referred to two posts on bhavanga.
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Yes, Bhavanga is a state of mind, but there are also cittas inside a Citta Vitthi, that are, at least in CMA called e.g.
V= “Vibrational bhavanga”
A=”arrest bhavanga”See page 166 on the Mind door process.
Since page 127 refers to the “investigation citta” as appearing in bhavanga citta, rebirth and death, I assume what is meant must be the above V and A cittas, right?
Page 122:
“Adverting (±vajjana): When an object impinges at one of the
sense doors or at the mind door, there occurs a mind-moment called
bhavanga-calana, vibration of the life-continuum, by which the bhavanga
consciousness “vibrates” for a single moment. This is followed by another
moment called bhavanga-upaccheda, arrest of the life-continuum, by
which the flow of the bhavanga is cut off. Immediately after this, a citta
arises turning to the object, either at one of the five physical sense doors
or at the mind door. This function of turning to the object is termed
adverting.”Page 139:”A mental object apprehended in the mind door in the last javana
process of the previous existence may become an object of the rebirth-
linking, bhavanga, and death consciousnesses of the new existence as a
kamma or as a sign of kamma that is past. If the object should be a sign
of destiny, it is usually a visible form apprehended in the mind door and
is present.”Bhikkhu Bodhis book talks about Process-freed cittas, which is something that you dispute, right? For you, there is no bhavanga citta but only a state of Bhavanga..?
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We may get a clue to this by looking at how a sensory event (a citta vithi) starts.
1. A pañcadvāra citta vithi starts when a pañcadvāravajjana citta disturbs the bhavanga state and makes it “come off the static “bhavaṅga state”. That takes three thought moments of AB (atita bhavaṅga), BC (bhavaṅga calana), BU (bhavaṅga upaccheda). Here “atita” (or “atheetha“) means “past,” “calana” (pronounced “chalana“) means “move” or “vibrate,” and “upaccheda” (or “upachchéda“) means “stop” or “break away.”
– That is explained in #4 of the post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
– The same thing happens for a manōdvāra citta vīthi as explained further down in that post.
– By the way, I just revised that post too. I have addressed the issue of a “bhavaṅga citta” there too.2. The point here is that a new citta vithi based on a new arammana is NOT initiated by a cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, ..mano vinnana citta.
– It is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana citta or a manōdvāra citta3. I am still not clear about the whole process. But the above is something to think about.
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On page 166:”Thus, according to Ledi Sayadaw, in the mind door
too there is a fourfold presentation of objects. The course ending with
registration can be called a very clear (ati-vibh³ta) presentation; the
course ending with javanas, a clear (vibh³ta) presentation; the course
ending with mind-door adverting, an obscure (avibh³ta) presentation;
and the course ending with mere vibration of the bhavanga, a very ob-
scure (ati-avibh³ta) presentation. The clarity of the presentation depends
on either the prominence of the object or the strength of consciousness”So, according to that, there can be Citta Vitthi, where a dhamma comes in that look like:
B B B A V V V V V V V V V B B B B
Similar to page 161 table.Now, a dhamma is incoming, but only investigating citta(the one that I proposed) is arising, then how can it be anything else?
In your post
You write:”The seventh akusala vipāka citta is called the investigating consciousness accompanied by equanimity (upekkha-sahagata santirana citta). This is the citta that is responsible for the birth in the apāyā (lowest four realms), i.e, it acts as the paṭisandhi citta for the birth in the apāyā.”
Yes, agreed, and in Bhikkhu Bodhis book, the investigation citta can arise as Patisandhi but also as “Bhavanga citta” (which is A and V in above diagram, not B because B is not a citta as you pointed out)
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I had made a basic error of assuming that all sensory events occur due to kamma vipaka.
– Of course, bad (and good) kamma (actions) are likely to bring vipaka in the future.However, bad (and good) sensory experiences can happen due to many reasons. Kamma vipaka is only one cause. I am not sure why I did not even think about that.
The Buddha explained that in, for example, “Sīvaka Sutta (SN 36.21)“.
– One English translation there: “36.21. Sivaka”As I mentioned above, a sensory event is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana citta or a manōdvāravajjana citta.
– Those two are categorized as “functional citta” in Table 1.3, p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (CMA) mentioned above. Those are NOT direct kusala/akusala vipaka.
– That is probably what Daniel referred to as well.So, all six processes (per MN 148 that Tobias listed in the first post on this thread) are initiated by those “two functional citta”.
– The sixth process that Tobias referred to, “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ” initiated by a manōdvāravajjana citta.. It is not a good or bad kamma vipaka. It is a “functional citta” that can arise as needed.I guess there is nothing to be revised in the post that Tobias referred to: “Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta”
– I have split the post into two sections (akusala citta and akusala vipaka citta) in that post.
– Please let me know if it needs any revision or if there are further questions. -
According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, some Citta Vitthi do not even go to the stage of “Pancadvara citta”, e.g. the very slight object at page 161. But Bhikkhu Bodhi also calls the” Vibrational Bhavanga citta” a resultant, which I translate as vipaka?
The other point:
If you say it is not a Vipaka, then your statement:” I think it is not only possible but necesssary. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, a vipaka bring the next bhava can come through any of the six senses. How does an arupavacara Brahma grasp the next bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment? He has only the mind-door.”It would mean the dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is not a vipaka?
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Daniel wrote: “According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, some Citta Vitthi do not even go to the stage of “Pancadvara citta”, e.g. the very slight object at page 161.”
– ALL 15 types listed on p. 161 are listed under “Pancadvara citta vithi”. However, if that arammana is very weak, the pancadvara does not even open. The bhavanga tries to break off but does not, and goes back to the “bhavanga state.”Daniel asked: “But Bhikkhu Bodhi also calls the” Vibrational Bhavanga citta” a resultant, which I translate as vipaka?”
– Bhavanga vibration is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana or a manōdvāravajjana arammana.Daniel asked: “It would mean the dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is not a vipaka?”
– I explained above that my initial premise was not correct. The premise was that all sensory inputs are due to kamma vipaka. I made that statement you quoted based on that wrong premise.
– Here is the bottom line: A sensory event (in any realm) can take place as a vipaka or it can happen due to other reasons. Please read my comments carefully before commenting. Otherwise, it can get confusing. A dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is a vipaka but there can be other sensory inputs that are not vipaka. To repeat: A sensory event is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana or a manōdvāravajjana citta, and those are functional citta; see the Table on p. 43 of CMA book. -
You said:
“A dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is a vipaka but there can be other sensory inputs that are not vipaka. ”
In an arupa realm, that must come through the mind-door process.
Then your statement:”The sixth process that Tobias referred to, “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ” initiated by a manōdvāravajjana citta.. It is not a good or bad kamma vipaka. It is a “functional citta” that can arise as needed.”
How do these two match each other, in your explanation?
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This is frustrating.
OK. I should have said, ”The sixth process that Tobias referred to, “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ” initiated by a manōdvāravajjana citta.. It is not NECESSARILY a good or bad kamma vipaka. It is a “functional citta” that can arise as needed.” (I did not have NECESSARILY there.)
But anyone should be able to understand what I meant, with my detailed explanation.
Anyway, this is my last comment, unless there are other issues.
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