[DanielSt]

Dear Lal, dear friends,

I just read the post:

Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa

I was wondering why you speak of ayatana in this post. I always thought that the contact of a rupa with the pasada rupa is still a vipaka event, which is “indriya” instead of ayatana?

Can you explain the difference between Ayathanavibhanga and Indriyavibhanga?
https://suttacentral.net/vb5/pli/ms

For me, (hadaya) rupa meeting pasada rupa is phasso (not samphasso) and here pasada rupa is just indriya.

Another question:

In the Vipaka PS,
”
tasmiṃ samaye (at that time) saṅ­khā­ra­ pac­cayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ, chaṭ­ṭhā­yata­na paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. Evametassa kevalassa duk­khak­khan­dhassa samudayo hoti”.”

What is meant by chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ ?

[Lal]

When we discuss the six internal sensory faculties (cakkhu, through mano), they are INDRIYA when no “san” (lobha, dosa, moha) involved. That involves only “phassa.”
– When sensory faculties are used with a defiled mind, they become AYATANA. That involves “samphassa” or “san” + “phassa.” That rhymes as “samphassa.”

See, “How Do Sense Faculties Become Internal Āyatana?”

That is the easiest way to remember. But INDRIYA can be many types in other contexts.

Regarding the Vipaka PS:
chaṭṭhāyatana is the sixth ayatana or manayatana.

[DanielSt]

You write in above article that I posted (Contact):
“When we see person X, for example, that is contact (phassa) between our internal āyatana (eyes or more correctly, cakkhu pasāda rūpa) and external āyatana (an image of person X in this case). That is the process stated in verse, “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.” The word “paṭicca” here refers to that contact (phassa).”

Shouldn’t the initial contact of a rupa with the pasada rupa be such that the pasada rupa of our Gandhabba is called indriya at that time?
Here, you refer to passada rupa as internal ayatana.
Then, pasada rupa delivers the energy to hadaya vatthu in 17 vibrations.
The contact that is samphassa should start only with the Javana cittas, where the pasada rupa becomes ayatana and makes contact with lobha,dosa,moha energies.

(This is my understanding)

Cakkhuindriya should also be pasada rupa, right?
When someone is an Arahant, he will also have above process and his “seeing” will also arise in the Gandhabba.

Is that correct?

Best wishes,
Daniel

[Lal]

Hello Daniel,

This is a finer technical point.

In principle, all indriya of anyone below the Arahant stage work as “ayatana” from the very beginning.
– In the “seeing event” that you described, the cakkhudvara citta vithi starts with “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.” That citta is one of 17 cittas in that citta vithi.
– However, each citta has vedana and sanna as 2 of the 7 universal cetasika.
– Anyone below the Arahant stage is not likely to have the “correct perception (sanna)”, i.e., any citta WILL NOT be a Pure citta or a pabhassara citta. But an arahant’s citta will not be contaminated.

Therefore, even if one may not take an unwise action based on that arammana, it is still a defiled perception in a technical sense.
– But your point is taken. We don’t act unwisely all the time.

[DanielSt]

Hello Lal,
I understand your point. Maybe it is a bit technical to consider this, but then it seems that in the avyakata PS cycles there is a defiled perception, but it is not arising due to “avijja” or “unwise acting”? Otherwise, there would also be akusala-mula PS cycles run in that time.
In another article you wrote that mano sankharas are generated in that part of the citta. These would be the sankharas that are mentioned in the avyakata PS as well, I suppose.

Edit:
I see it in your statement:

“This happens within a billionth of a second and we DO NOT have control over that initial response either; manō saṅkhāra are generated AUTOMATICALLY in one’s mind. These are also part of the avyākata citta since they arise AUTOMATICALLY within the same citta vīthi.”
In the post about Avyakata PS.

[Lal]

Yes. Mano sankhara arise automatically and are defiled to some extent for anyone below the Arahant stage.
– This is why mano sankhara cannot give rise to rebirth, i.e., mano sankhara cannot create “kammapatha” or “strong kamma.”

[Author]

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