[y not]

What is this sutta saying?

“I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced.”
sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadām
“And I don’t say that suffering is ended without experiencing intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated.”
Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṃ vadāmi

The heart’s release by love developed in this way…The heart’s release by equanimity developed in this way… leads to non-return for a wise mendicant here who has not penetrated to a higher freedom.”
upekkhā cetovimutti anāgāmitāya saṃvattati, idha paññassa bhikkhuno uttari vimuttiṃ appaṭivijjhato”ti – (‘to a higher freedom – i.e to Arahanthood)

The first three verses seem to indicate that once a cause is created the effect must follow invariably – no allownace is made for the case when Arahanthood sets at naught (makes forever ineffective) the vipaka of former causes. Also:
‘That noble disciple is rid of desire, rid of ill will, unconfused, aware, and mindful. They meditate spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will….They understand: ‘Formerly my mind was limited and undeveloped. Now it’s limitless and well developed. WHAHEVER LIMITED DEEDS I’VE DONE DON’T REMAIN OR PERSIST THERE’ BUT THAT APPLIES ONLY TO ARAHANTS; but the sutta shows it is referring to Sakadagamis attaining the Anagami stage.

In short it says that getting rid of desire and ill-will and practicing Metta to all beings makes one an Anagami. And:

The heart’s release by love developed in this way leads to non-return for a wise mendicant here who has NOT penetrated to a higher freedom.
– Evaṃ bhāvitā kho, bhikkhave, mettā cetovimutti anāgāmitāya saṃvattati, idha paññassa bhikkhuno uttari vimuttiṃ appaṭivijjhato.

I take this to mean that the absence of desire and ill-will plus the practice of Metta Bhavana takes one ONLY as far as the Anagami stage, but no further.Of course, the first three fetters are not mentioned, i.e.they are taken as already destroyed, so this must be referring to Sakadagamis here (ABSENCE of desire and ill-will). So that is quite clear – the question is about the first two verses at the beginning- that effects must follow causes BY ALL ACCOUNTS.

Metta to all beings

[Johnny_Lim]

“I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced.”

If there is no suitable condition to facilitate a kamma vipaka, then one would not be able to experience the kamma vipaka even though the cause is still out there. For example a person who has attained the Sotāpanna fruition would never be reborn in the woeful states. There is a stark difference in wearing out a kamma vipaka and being able to experience one.

“The first three verses seem to indicate that once a cause is created the effect must follow invariably…”

If all kamma vipaka done by a person must be experienced by that person, then this spiritual path is not possible to practise. Also, it’s detrimental to one’s view on laws of kamma.

[y not]

Johnny,

“If there is no suitable condition to facilitate a kamma vipaka, then one would not be able to experience the kamma vipaka even though the cause is still out there..
If all kamma vipaka done by a person must be experienced by that person, then this spiritual path is not possible to practise.”

Precisely. That is my understanding too. But this sutta is saying otherwise.Or, on the face of it, this sutta is saying otherwise. It must be the translation, or the way the words are put that give this meaning. That is why I provided the Pali version, so that anyone who can may give an answer based on that. The two points (that you mention) are valid, so it cannot be that these verses undo all that.

Intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are either:
– not eliminated by not being experienced,
– eliminated by being experienced, or
– eliminated by not being experienced (through the attainment of Arahanthood), i.e.where suitable conditions cannot arise.) But the verse does not support this last case, beginning: “I DON’T say that….are eliminated without being experienced”. That is the whole question.

Or, what is being stated applies to Anagamis (about whom the sutta is talking) and not beyond; so it is not given as a general, all-inclusive statement.

Thank you for your time

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi y not,

It could be the case of bad kamma vipaka being largely attenuated by a stronger kamma. e.g. attainment of Magga Phala. Considering the case of Venerable Aṅgulimāla who had to suffer bodily abuse because of his evil deeds. Had he not attain Arahantship, his kamma vipaka could be much much worse. People who practise well on the path might still experience bad kamma vipaka in the form of illness and other inconveniences. This is the only logical explanation I could think of.

[Lal]

This is a sutta with a deep meaning that needs to be translated carefully. This is why I keep saying that one needs to be careful when reading English translations of suttas.

• While existing English translations of many suttas are OK, there are exceptions like this one (and of course those to do with anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc).

The key (and starting verse) is: “Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi, tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā duk­khas­san­takiri­yaṃ vadāmi.”

I have not had much time to think about it. But I think this is the key idea in that verse:
“Bhikkhus, as long as one does kamma without understanding “san” (how defilements are associated with their certain actions or “appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā”), they will never be able to bring existence to an end (byantibhavama), either in this life, the next life or in any future life. Therefore, they will not be able to bring suffering to an end (duk­khas­san­takiri­yaṃ).

When one comprehends Tilakkhana, AND becomes good at being mindful (Satipatthana), one can quickly figure out whether an action that one is about to take is a bad one. One becomes “patisamvedi” and is called “sampajanno” when one gets good at it.
– That means one can “feel” automatically whether a given action that one is about to take is a good or bad one.

This is explained in detail in “Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajānapabba)“.
– It may be a good idea to read the sections before that too: “Maha Satipatthana Sutta“.

Note that there is no mention of “vipaka” in that verse. The translation is completely wrong.

y not said: “In short it says that getting rid of desire and ill-will and practicing Metta to all beings makes one an Anagami.” AND

“Of course, the first three fetters are not mentioned, i.e.they are taken as already destroyed, so this must be referring to Sakadagamis here (ABSENCE of desire and ill-will)..”

Those two statements summarize the situation:

In order to get the Anagami stage via metta bhavana, one must have comprehended Tilakkhana at least to the level of a Sotapanna (Sakadagami stage is not necessary, even though better).
– Absence of desire and lii-will need only to be suppressed while doing the metta bhavana (i.e., absent during the bhavana); if they have been removed, then one is already an Anagami.

[y not]

Thank you Lal,

What I had in mind by “..so this must be referring to Sakadagamis here (ABSENCE of desire and ill-will)..” was Sakadagamis working for the Anagami Stage and attaining it. Yes, it goes for Sotapannas as well.

Your answer is not only quite satisfactory, but goes beyond. Thank you.
Incidentally, something I have pondered for quite a while: for Sotapannas and Sakadagamis working towards the elimination of desire and ill-will, will there be a different destination for those who have completely eliminated ill-will but not kama raga? Somewhere between Sakadagamis and Anagamis. As such they are not Anagamis yet (kama raga is still there), so another way to put it is: for Sakadagamis totally free of ill-will?

Speaking of that, AN 10.63 Nitthangatasutta opens with: all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.) The two single words’mayi. and ‘nittham’ are not translated into English, only a ? is supplied. By ‘“all those who have come to a conclusion about me” I felt a surge of joy in the heart, taking that to mean ‘those whose confidence and faith in the Buddha has become well-grounded, unshakable , the very basis of their lives – and so they have come to hold right view” Does the original Pali justify this rendering?

Then the sutta goes on to list ‘five conclude their path in this realm ..and five conclude their path after leaving this realm behind. Apparently these last five are brahma realms, so is it saying that they conclude their path in their very next existence in a brahma realm?
– Antarāparinibbāyissa, upahaccaparinibbāyissa, asaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa,sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa, uddhaṃsotassa akaniṭṭhagāmino –

Lastly, I would like to share a verse I came across in AN 4.34 ..(Aggappasadasutta)
– Having confidence in the best, the result is the best.
(Agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti.)

May all beings make an end of suffering

[Lal]

“Speaking of that, AN 10.63 Nitthangatasutta opens with: all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.) The two single words’mayi. and ‘nittham’ are not translated into English, only a ? is supplied. By ‘“all those who have come to a conclusion about me” I felt a surge of joy in the heart, taking that to mean ‘those whose confidence and faith in the Buddha has become well-grounded, unshakable , the very basis of their lives – and so they have come to hold right view” Does the original Pali justify this rendering?”

Yes. Very good. Now you can see why I say this Dhamma has been hidden all these years.

Regarding AN 4.34:
Pasāda is the key word in the sutta. It means a combination of confidence/faith/reverence/joy all combined.One who has pasāda about something becomes pasannā.
“Ye, bhikkhave, buddhe pasannā, agge te pasannā” means one who has developed pasāda for the Buddha has attained the foremost pasāda.
– “agga” means foremost or best.
– So, the sutta lists four things that belong to “foremost pasāda”: Buddha, ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga, virāga dhamma, saṅgha.

Then, “Agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti“, means “(having) foremost pasāda leads to foremost (best) results (vipaka)”.

So, your translation was good there too.

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