- This topic has 8 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 3 hours ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
Hello people of the dhamma.
I found a video, and it seemed very unusual to me.
I’ve given you the exact time from where you can watch what I want to show you.
He says that in reality there are only 4 jhānas (rupa jhānas) and what we call “arupa jhānas” are actually states within the 4th jhāna.
And that actually makes a lot of sense.
Because if you have read the Mahā sati paṭṭhāna sutta (long sutta)
Mahasatipatthana Sutta – The Great Discourse on the Establishing of Awareness
in sammāsamādhi (sammā-samādhi), there are only 4 jhānas mentioned.
If there were 8 jhanas, why would the Buddha not state them in the discourse?
They are probably states within the 4th jhāna.
Also I’ve seen this sutta:
AN 9.41: Tapussasutta—Bhikkhu Sujatoand all of the 8 meditative absorptions are mentioned in it, however the jhānas are only counted until the fourth.
It’s a very long sutta so I will just quote how they are mentioned:
“I entered and remained in the first absorption.”
“I entered and remained in the second absorption.”
“I entered and remained in the third absorption.”
“I entered and remained in the fourth absorption.”
And after the definition and counting of those absorptions, they are just referred by names, not a corresponding number:
“I entered and remained in the dimension of infinite space.”
“I entered and remained in the dimension of infinite consciousness.”
“I entered and remained in the dimension of nothingness.”
“I entered and remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
And we have after that is what some people might even call “the 9th jhāna”:
“I entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling.”
I’ve also noticed that in this last one “9th jhāna” it is not said “dimension of” like in the other attainments.
-
Yes. There are only four jhānās, which correspond to the mental states of rupa loka Brahmas.
- There are four arupa samāpattis, which correspond to the mental states of arupa loka Brahmas.
- So, it is incorrect to say the following (to quote from your comment), “He says that in reality there are only 4 jhānas (rupa jhānas) and what we call “arupa jhānas” are actually states within the 4th jhāna.”
__________
The eight states you quoted from the Tapussa Sutta confirm what I mentioned above.
- The ninth one at the end of your comment is not a jhāna or samāpatti.
- “The cessation of perception and feeling“ is “nirodha samāpatti,” which is attainable only by an Arahant.
Also, see “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)– Akuppā Cētōvimutti” and “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti.”
-
Nice, so you agree that there are only 4 jhānās.
But I didn’t get why you said it’s incorrect to say the thing that you quoted from my comment.
Don’t we both agree that the states above 4th jhānā should not be called jhānās?
Also, I am aware that the ninth one is not a jhānā, I was just saying that some people call it 9th jhānā.
-
You wrote: “He says that in reality there are only 4 jhānas (rupa jhānas) and what we call “arupa jhānas” are actually states within the 4th jhāna.”
- What I highlighted above is what is wrong.
-
What he says is not correct, even based on my personal experience. He got the hint, though, because what he says applies to arupa jhanas, which he probably mistakes for rupa jhanas, as it is true for arupa jhanas. For example, when I was going through arupa jhanas, they were the same experience, and the difference between them was only knowledge about their nature.
Imagine that you go into water, the initial experience is like the first arupa jhana but once you stay a while in that water you start noticing more things about the fluidity, how it feel and you experience more and more knowledge about nature of it thru that experience as you become more simmered but the experience per se does not change.
For me, all arupa jhanas are the same; the difference is only the depth of knowledge you get from them as time goes on.
My theory is that arupa jhanas are different “roads” of jhanas rather than rupa. Normally, you see that you need to go “one by one” from rupa to arupa. I think it is not true, as you can go directly to arupa, bypassing the first 4 rupa jhanas. Some sources I checked (later commentaries), like that you can go “really fast” that you are not aware of doing so, I can not confirm that because if things like that happened obviously I was not aware.
A guy in the video seems to be misinterpreting his own experience. That’s why I don’t like to talk about jhanas a lot, because some fake teachers may find this post and act like they have achieved something. In my long journey of meditation, I didn’t find anyone, I think, who actually attained jhanas and properly described them as the real thing. Only Abhaya Thero students explained their jhana properly. (rupa jhanas only though)
-
-
See #9 through #12 in “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti.”
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.