[Tobias G]

What happens e.g. to a vanna rupa after it has made contact with the internal cakkhu rupa (a pasada rupa)? Does it vanish? Also how does the external vanna rupa come into existence? How long do internal and external rupa exist?

What is the difference between e.g. a gold bar and vanna rupa?

[Lal]

The post in question is: “Does any Object (Rupa) Last only 17 Thought Moments?“.

For those who may not be familiar with the term “vanna rupa” (or “varna rupa”), it is something (person or object) that one sees.
– Sadda rupa is a sound that one hears, rasa rupa is a taste, etc.

Now, the question raised by Tobias requires one to understand the following.

1. There is a sankata out there in the world (a person or an object like a tree).

2. A “picture” of that rupa is captured by the eyes, processed by the brain, and that signal is sent to the cakkhu pasada rupa (which is part of the gandhabba). This “picture” is what is seen by us (or more precisely, our gandhabba or our mental body).

That second one is the vanna rupa. The first one is a sankata that is “out there”.

Let us say we look at a tree. Then the tree is a sankata. It will germinate, grow, and die one day.

If we look at the tree, our eyes capture a “snapshot” of that tree and that “vanna rupa” is seen by us.
– So, what we see is a “picture of the tree” that existed at that precise moment that we looked at it.
– That vanna rupa is captured by the mind within 17 thought moments (in a cakkhudvara citta vithi).
– A moment after we see it, it becomes a “nama gotta”, or a “recorded event” in our mind.
Suppose we never get to see that tree ever again.
– If the tree was unusual for some reason, we may be able to remember it even a couple of years later. But it is possible that someone may have cut off that tree and it may not even be existing at that time.

This is what is needed to be understood. A sankata (the tree) is different from the “picture” that is included in our pancakkhandha. The “picture of that tree” is in our rupakkhandha forever.

If we liked that tree for some reason, it may be part of our rupa upadanakkhadha (a rupa that we like and crave for).

So, I hope your questions are unanswered. This is VERY important, so if it is not clear to anyone, please ask questions.

More details at: “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha” and “Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.

[Tobias G]

Thank you Lal. Can I conclude that the tree is made of vanna rupa because a tree is something visible? As I understand external rupa make contact with the internal rupa. The eye for example comes in contact with photons. But the tree is not made of photons. What is what here?

[Lal]

Tobias asked: “Can I conclude that the tree is made of vanna rupa because a tree is something visible?”

No. The tree is made of four great elements: patavi, apo, tejo, vayo. OR, in terms of modern science, a tree is made of atoms/molecules.
– Vanna rupa is the “picture of that tree registered in one’s mind.

“As I understand external rupa make contact with the internal rupa”.

Yes, but the contact is not directly made with the external rupa (in our example, the tree).
– The contact (phassa) is made between the vanna rupa (the picture captured with the aid of eyes) and the internal rupa, which is the cakkhu pasada rupa that is in our mental body (gandhabba).
– That contact (phassa) can become a “defiled contact” (samphassa) if one’s greedy gati automatically incorporated by the mind; see, “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa“.

“The eye for example comes in contact with photons. But the tree is not made of photons. ”

No. The photons (light) just help in capturing an image of the tree by the eyes. Then the eyes pass that captured image to the brain. The brain processes that information and passes it along to the cakku pasada in the mental body.
– That last step is when the “contact” (phassa) is made and the cakkhu vinnana arises.
– This is stated in “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppaddati cakkhu vinnanam”. Here “cakkhu” is cakkhu pasada rupa. “Rupa” is the signal of the image received by the cakkhu pasada rupa. Cakkhu vinnana is the overall “mental defiled consciousness” of that external rupa (in our case, the tree).
-That cakkhu vinnana is automatically contaminated with our gati (if we had any liking for that tree or even if just seeing the tree generated a liking for that tree).

[Tobias G]

Thus vanna rupa are created by the brain and sent to the cakkhu rupa to make contact?

[Lal]

That is right!

The same for sadda rupa. External sounds are captured by the ears, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to sota pasada rupa as a sadda rupa.

The same for rasa rupa. Taste of food is captured by the tongue, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to jivha pasada rupa as a rasa rupa.

The same for gandha rupa. A smell is captured by the nose, that signal processed by the brain, and sent to ghana pasada rupa as a gandha rupa.

The same for pottabba rupa. A touch is captured by the body (skin), that signal processed by the brain, and sent to kaya pasada rupa as a pottabba rupa.

The same for dhamma rupa. That a little bit different. For example, a memory comes to the mana indriya in the brain (which has not been identified by science yet), that signal processed by the brain, and sent to hadaya vatthu (in one’s mental body).
– It is to be noted that the first five signals (cakkhu, sota, ghana. rasa, pottabba) are also “seen” by the hadaya vatthu, which is the “seat of the mind.”
– In the mental body (gandhabba), five pasada rupa are located around the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind). Thoughts (citta) arise in the hadaya vatthu. When a signal comes to a given pasada rupa (say cakkhu pasada), it makes contact with the hadaya vatthu. That is actually how the contact (phassa) is made.

More details at: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.

[Tobias G]

What happens to the vanna rupa when they have made contact with the cakkhu rupa? Do they vanish?

[Lal]

Yes. It is just a signal from the brain.

[y not]

On the change of bhava, a being gets a new set of the khandhas ( temporary, operative for the duration of that bhava alone). So vedana does not travel from life to life.

Then there is phassa and sanphassa, vedana and sanvedana in connection with rupakkhanda and rupaupadanakkhanda. The second in every case is ingrained in one’s gathi and is carried forward from life to life (always with changes along the way):

-“The “picture of that tree” is in our rupakkhandha forever. If we liked that tree for some reason, it may be part of our rupa upadanakkhadha (a rupa that we like and crave for)”-

So would it be correct to say that a being is made up of (a particular set of)the 5 khandhas in the shorter run of one particular bhava, and of the comulative effect of many such series of them (upadanakkhandha- sanphassa and sanvedana) in the longer run during sansara?

[Lal]

Y not wrote: “On the change of bhava, a being gets a new set of the khandhas”

That is not correct. But it is a common misconception. Pancakkhandha is all mental, basically records in the mind.

You should carefully read the two posts that I mentioned in my first comment.

Then read through the comments above again. I know that this is a bit hard to understand. Buddha Dhamma is deep, and it takes a real effort to “get” the key concepts.
– However, once a concept is grasped it will stay and will help clarify many other related concepts.

In a new bhava, what one gets is not new khandhas, but a set of new pasada rupa together with a new hadaya vatthu.
– In other words, a new bhava comes with a new mental body, which is called a gandhabba for humans and animals. For brahmas, it is just the mental body and no physical body.

[Tobias G]

I wrote above “The eye, for example, comes in contact with photons.”

But you, Lal, said: “No. The photons (light) just help in capturing an image of the tree by the eyes. Then the eyes pass that captured image to the brain. The brain processes that information and passes it along to the cakku pasada in the mental body.”

What is wrong in my sentence? The physical eye receives photons from the tree, or not?

Also photons are made of the great elements, thus they are not vanna rupa but a mixture of apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, correct?

[Lal]

Tobias wrote: “I wrote above “The eye, for example, comes in contact with photons.”

No. You wrote more than that. ” The eye for example comes in contact with photons. But the tree is not made of photons.”

I have revised my reply above to include the whole statement. It did not explain where actual contact (phassa) is made. From your statement, someone could get the wrong idea that contact is with the eye with photons.

I have explained what happens with the photons.
– Nothing wrong in your statement per se. But it did not clarify what happens. I was trying to explain exactly what happens, and what is meant by “phassa”. I was just trying to help, not to criticize.
– By the way, when I write a comment, I am trying to explain things to the general audience. I try to provide a comprehensive picture, when possible.

P.S. Of course, a tree is not made of photons. But photons (light particles) need to bounce off a tree for the tree to be seen. That is why we cannot see trees (or anything else) at night. Again, this is a general clarification, and not to you, Tobias. You are an engineer, as I remember.

Tobias’ last question: “Also photons are made of the great elements, thus they are not vanna rupa but a mixture of apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, correct?”

Yes. That is correct.

[cubibobi]

Wow, fascinating discussion. In the example of seeing the tree, I used to think of the tree as a vanna rupa. Thank you for the clarification between a vanna rupa and a sankata, and similarly for other types of rupa.

Lal wrote:
– The contact (phassa) is made between the vanna rupa (the picture captured with the aid of eyes) and the internal rupa, which is the cakkhu pasada rupa that is in our mental body (gandhabba).
– That contact (phassa) can become a “defiled contact” (samphassa) if one’s greedy gati automatically incorporated by the mind; see, “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa”.

Instead of a tree, let’s say it is a very attractive, enticing object. If I remember correctly from the abhidhamma section, then the cakkhudvara citta vithi from seeing that object is followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. Does the samphassa happen in those thrree manodvara citta vithi?

If that is the case, then for an arahant, are there still 3 (pure) manodvara citta vithi following the cakkhudvara citta vithi, or are there no manodvara citta vithi following it at all?

Thank you,
Lang

[Tobias G]

What rupa are experienced by a gandhabba when he/she is in paraloka or by a deva or a brahma? There is no brain to produce vanna, sadda, rasa, ghanda, pottabba rupa.

As I understand all rupa are made of the 4 great elements. Thus even vanna rupa and also cakkhu rupa are made of these 4 great elements. What determines a cakkhu rupa or what is the “addon” here compared to e.g. a photon?

[Lal]

Lang wrote, “In the example of seeing the tree, I used to think of the tree as a vanna rupa.”

You are not alone in that, Lang. Many people have that misconception.

“Instead of a tree, let’s say it is a very attractive, enticing object. If I remember correctly from the Abhidhamma section, then the cakkhudvara citta vithi from seeing that object is followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. Does the samphassa happen in those three manodvara citta vithi?”

Every time a pancadvara citta vithi runs, three manodvara citta vithi will run following that.
– Samphassa happens in the first pancadvara citta vithi and will also be there in the additional manodvara citta vithi.

“..then for an arahant, are there still 3 (pure) manodvara citta vithi following the cakkhudvara citta vithi, or are there no manodvara citta vithi following it at all?”

Yes. Even for an Arahant, the sequence is the same. But without any samphassa.
– This has to do with the fact that an Arahant will also engage in “neutral activities” like walking, eating, etc. It is just that no abhisankhara will be generated.

Tobias asked: “What rupa are experienced by a gandhabba when he/she is in paraloka or by a deva or a brahma? There is no brain to produce vanna, sadda, rasa, ghanda, pottabba rupa.”

Gandhabba does not need eyes/brain and ears/brain to see and hear. Like for brahmas, they can see and hear at long distances without eyes/ears. See, “Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya“.
– However, gandhabba can “absorb” scents and can get a bit denser. The word gandhabba comes from “gandha + abba” or “taking in aroma/scents”.

Tobias asked: “As I understand all rupa are made of the 4 great elements. Thus even vanna rupa and also cakkhu rupa are made of these 4 great elements. What determines a cakkhu rupa or what is the “addon” here compared to e.g. a photon?”

– That is the difference between a live being and an inert object. Live beings have hadaya vatthu and a number of pasada rupa (five for humans to zero pasada rupa for the arupavacara brahmas).
– In other words, a living being ALWAYS has a hadaya vatthu to generate thoughts (citta). The only exception is the asanna realm. An asanna being does not generate thoughts, and the fine rupa is maintained by kammic energy.
– This can be easily seen when a human or an animal dies; their mental body with hadaya vatthu gets separated from the dead body, and a dead body is inert just like wood or stone.
– By the way, when the mental body of a yogi comes out of his physical body (say during astral travel), it is still connected to the physical body via kammic energy. That is why that physical body will still have body heat. Of course, at his death, the mental body would be separated and the dead body will get cold.
P.S. In a dead body, there are physical eyes but no mental body with cakkhu pasada rupa.

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