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From the Katthavatthu
I tried reading the material, but I’m having a challenging time understanding or connecting everything that’s being said. From a sentence mentioned in the material, “you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds.” Taken as face value, it literally seems like one doesn’t hear sounds in jhana’s, but having read over the material a few times, I’m starting to get the impression that there’s more background understanding that is needed to fully grasp what’s being said about “you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds.”I believe the background understanding that I’m not fully comprehending and it’s of importance to understanding “you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds.” is from this;Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.
Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny … You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .
The key points that I can break down from the paragraph.– It seems like the non-Theravada party believes one can “hear” in jhana’s, but denies that one can “see, feel, taste, touch” in jhana’s.– Both parties agrees on that samadhi arises on mental objects or the mind door?This last line is where I’m having the most difficulty in understanding.– “But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time”Does anyone have any opinions or thoughts that they can share to help me understand the last quoted paragraph above? -
The problem is with the translation, not in the original text.
The Pali version: “Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā“
The verse “Samāpanno saddaṁ suṇātīti? Āmantā. ” is translated as “That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.”
- Samāpanno here means “one who is in a samapatti.”
But not everyone who can get into a jhana can get into the corresponding “jhana samapatti.” That is explained in the following:
9. When a mind transcends the kama loka, it gets to the mindset of rupāvacara Brahmas. Those are the jhānic states. Lower Brahma realms have lower jhānic states and higher Brahma realms have higher jhānic states.
- But when a human enters a jhāna (especially without much practice), the mind does not stay continuously in the jhāna citta stream. It alternates between jhānic citta vithi and pañcadvāra citta vithi belonging to the kama loka. Thus, the yogi may see and hear while in a jhānic state.
10. With practice, one could be experiencing jhānā citta vithi continuously for many minutes. That means the yogi will not be aware of any sensory inputs through the five physical senses; thus, he will not see, hear, etc. During that time, the yogi is in a jhāna samāpatti.
The above two bullet points are from the post: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti.“
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