[cat]

I am still exploring the site as I found it recently and I was planning on waiting to share my experience before I had read and understood more as to not write anything that didn’t add much new value on the forum. 

 

But, as much as I Know that I am my own highest teacher, I also Know that the Noble sangha is of great importance and I should honour my feelings At the moment. So now I’m giving in to my impatience to get to know the Noble sangha to relieve some of the distress that I’m feeling and to get further on this inevitable path. I’m also hoping to be of inspiration to the one who needs it.

 

I can now see that I’ve been on a winding but steady path even before deciding to attend a 10-day vipassana course this January. I never followed any specific religion/tradition/faith in my life and I more or less consciously didn’t want to read too much about Buddhism, because I instinctively knew I had to find things out myself in the way I did. I have always tried to see all the people and situations in my life as teachers to reach greater wisdom. Some more inspirational than others. 

 

I don’t mean to say that Vipassana is the only or complete path to reach the end goal, but my experience was that the whole course, with everything from the rules to Goenkas lectures, was exactly tailored to lead me to where I ended up after that. It was with the Last word of the Last speech (9th day), spoken by Goenka, that a realization dawned on me and I had a sad/scared/happy breakdown. 

 

Sad because my mind was/is still attached to desire and aversion (that is the life I imagine(d) would make me happy) and thought I had asked for too much knowledge. Scared because I understood much of the implications of my thoughts/actions for everybody and the big changes it would immediately require in my current life. Happy because I knew everything will be all right and that I could now help other people better than before. 

 

For about a week after the course my mind was equanimous and I lived life with a great inner compass guiding all my speech and actions. The thought of just cooking for myself felt fruitless and I would rather wait until the desire for food arose in other people and create good kamma by either cooking together or letting one of us offer the food to the other. I also understood the damage of any sexual activities and paid work because, the way I see it, anything other than practicing Dhamma is contributing to suffering / fruitless and in practicality dangerous. 

 

Since then I’ve been struggling a bit to integrate what I now Know with the sad/scared/lonely/bored feelings (yes, I found the equanimous mind and thought of not wanting to indulge anymore, boring). I missed having Noble sangha around because I still have wrong view/understanding of things and the confusion grew bigger again.

 

I have read descriptions where I interpreted that sotapanna stage is without any negative feelings or doubt. I feel like there is at least two layers to my experience. One is what my body instinctively Knows deep down and the other is my intellect which is confused and doesn’t know for sure what I Know. I wonder if someone with more clarity could make an analysis of what I’ve written and suggest some next steps? 

 

It’s mainly so that I can be of greater use to my fellow people again as I can’t act much as an inspiration in this somewhat drained and melancholic state that I’m in right now. I could probably just wait until it passes but something is telling me that connecting to the Noble sangha is important in some way right now. 

 

I have a lot more that I’m pondering but will stop here for now. ^^

 

I’m just starting to familiarize with pali so I would appreciate if anyone answering would want to use both pali and english translation. 

 

With love/metta, Cat

[cat]

I have now had some further insights which make me want to erase this post since I think I wrote it with wrong view. I don’t want it to sound like I support Vipassana as Im now thinking it might lead on a stray path, as it might have with me. Im saying might because at this moment Im very unsure about anything and everything and I don’t want anyone else to get hurt in the process.

[Lal]

Hello, Cat,

We have had many discussions about Goenka Vipassana retreats in this forum.

• One key point was that he uses breath meditation to calm the mind before engaging in Vipassana. Is that correct?
• We can discuss this further after your reply.

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cat

[cat]

Yes, people are first to observe the breath as it Is, to gain concentration. If possible I would like to get some personal guidance over private email (as I sent you).

[Lal]

The Buddhist Anapanasati meditation is not “breath meditation.” Let us start with that discussion.

• Please read “Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?” and let us know your thoughts.

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cat

[cat]

On the breath, I think I used more of the focus on ”cooling down”/nothingness before the course. That was the one that felt/feels more intuitive now that Im aware. I also read several other texts which have given me what I feel like is greater insight.

I now feel like your teaching is purer and more complete and therefore I might have promoted Vipassana falsely among friends and family, therefore “missing the shot”. Have I?

It also led to a new insight that after seeing Some truths, I was thinking it was ok to go against what I knew to be true for a little while just to relieve some temporary, personal suffering by creating a bit more suffering. For example continue to apply for jobs that I didn’t really want (lying) and in general failing to live a “perfect” life according to my new truth, trying to integrate my life before realizing certain things with the one after. I said I wasn’t done suffering, not really understanding How much suffering this could possibly create in the “eternal”/eternal future. Now I think I understand that I might go to apaya next and I felt intense fright for some hours. What made me think it’s ok, was the thought that if life is impermanent, then don’t we all eventually find nibbhana?

This seems like a paradox to me, that the suffering is Immense and at the same time everything is fine (I dont know how I know that, but I had that strong feeling once in meditation). Then why do we even feel it’s that important to reach nibbhana?

I think it’s because we love, I love. We are love and want everyone to know that. This is what’s making me sad here, that I feel like I missed a chance to make myself and other beings happy.

I feel like I’m oscillating between deep insight and illusion which makes me unsure of what is true and how to live properly. I get very bad conscience when I do something that goes against what I think is right at the moment, but then that “right at the moment” is not always clear and then I get bad conscience for past actions where I should have known better. Feels impossible.

I have very practical questions like how do I get food when I feel I can’t ask for it and don’t feel I should prioritize it over dhamma but feel the desire for it? Right now I have difficulty seeing the highest actions.

Sorry for being all over the place with my thoughts but I’m thinking that my back and forth probably gives a pretty accurate picture of the current state. And I believe that you understand better than I do. Thank you for giving me more food for thought!

[Lal]

1. Don’t worry. At least 90% of the “Buddhists” are not aware of the actual teachings of the Buddha, let alone the general population.

• Please go through the following sections and read whatever interests you. Once you identify an aspect that interests you, that will give you a good start.
• “Bhāvanā (Meditation)” and ” Moral Living and Fundamentals.”
• Please feel free to ask questions. Referring to a specific post and bullet numbers helps others to answer the questions.

2. Breath meditation attracts many people because it calms the mind. It is OK to do it as needed to calm the mind, but don’t spend too much time on it.

3. If others have suggestions for Cat, please post. Different insights/experiences can be valuable.

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cat

[Jittananto]

Hello Cat! In your first response, you mentioned the importance of the noble Maha Sangha. If you would like to speak with bhikkhus, the monks at Jethavaranama Monastery organize online personal meetings with laypeople. They can provide you with advice tailored to your situation on your path.

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cat

[cat]

First of all, Thank you Jittananto for the advice. I have looked into the center and booked a guidance call with a monk that will happen today.

Second, I want to give a small update. Since I wrote my first message here in this thread, I have done nothing else but reading, contemplating and adhering to the best of my ability to perfect sila/“moral”. I realized that without planning for it, I’ve lived very close to a monastic life at home these days, contemplating all that I read. Only thing where I might have to break sila is to cook for exclusively myself. The thought brings me some suffering though, so it would be an inspiration to hear about examples of keeping perfect sila in life outside a monastery. The main thing being that I currently live in western society and I’m expecting to go many days hungry and some part of me is afraid of creating feelings of alienation in people. I still want to be here to help my family and wider community to find real happiness, but I don’t want them to think I joined a sect, so I might decide to break sila to not make them uncomfortable. I don’t live very close to them either so the practical aspects are still something I’m pondering on how to solve. Another option is to actually move to a monastery, but it doesn’t feel right at the moment. Now I’m thinking It might be breaking the sila occasionally that is the right thing to do..

So far I have been able to relate various texts on this page to my own life experiences and haven’t found inconsistencies or contradictions yet. There is ofc also a lot that I still don’t fully grasp and need to contemplate, but faith is growing even in the more complex subjects.

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Jittananto

[Lal]

You wrote: “Only thing where I might have to break sila is to cook for exclusively myself. “

• Why do you think you will break sila by cooking for yourself?
• What sila is broken that way?

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cat

[cat]

It’s the sila of not taking what is not given. After the realization I had, Ive had this strong sense that cooking for myself would be fruitless because I would deprive others the joy of giving and that I should just wait for that urge to arise in someone else.

Also I cannot ask for a service that doesn’t come from the heart so I cannot ask for it explicitly. That is why I had a feeling it’s important to be around Sangha/“community” where you would naturally cook for each other. And Noble Sangha is important as inspiration because I need to get further on this journey.

So if I want to have food I have to cook for someone else to eat with me. The thing is that even that feels like somewhat of a waste of time as all I want to spend time on now is to understand and spread dhamma.

First of all to share with the people that I owe in my life (a lot of people!) and secondly everyone else who wants to learn. And for the people I owe, who haven’t asked to learn about dhamma, that can be to simply ask them What do you need help with and do that. If they would ask me to clean their backyard then that’s the thing.

Now that I think about it, if I were to cook it would be to enable More Noble Sangha to teach dhamma. Because when with other people I would rather spend my time helping with psychological issues/teaching dhamma (while cooking for them is no problem). :)It’s just a very big and sudden change in my view, or rather Feeling of life, that I’m trying to integrate in the best way possible. To a good part I’ve been able to explain gradually to my family and friends what’s happening, but I’ve also made misjudgments (wrong view) of what/when to share and how to express myself in front of some.
Thank you for asking that! Trying to type down what I’m feeling is a good way to understand these very things I want to make sense of.

• This reply was modified 9 hours ago by cat.

[Lal]

I am afraid you have some misconceptions.

1. “Sangha” refers ONLY to those with magga phala (Noble Persons), i.e., at or above the Sotapanna stage.

• Not even all bhikkhus belong to “Sangha.“
• However, all bhikkhus deserve our respect.

2. Since bhikkhus, in most cases (especially in Buddhist countries), receive food from the lay disciples, they are not expected to cook for themselves. They are expected NOT to earn money, so they have no way of buying food. Furthermore, they are expected to commit their time to learning, practicing, and teaching Dhamma to lay people.

• However, lay people (including those with magga phala) must cook for themselves. The main reason is that others cannot determine whether a given lay person (“householder”) is a Noble Person.  
• Cooking for oneself and eating by oneself does not break the sila of a layperson, even if he/she is a Noble Person. I assume you are a layperson.

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Jittananto, cat

[cat]

Sorry if I look like Im repeating myself, I already mentioned I grew up in western society, but I want to explain that I was Not well read on specifically Buddhism or Dhamma before this so it’s been just a few weeks of trying to make sense of my sudden experience of more clarity to myself and others.

So I still experience occasional thoughts of disbelief and have to be very mindful to identify and not slip into for example vain talking. Or teaching the wrong dhamma, which I was/(am?) afraid that I did after the vipassana retreat, ascribing my increased clarity to it and teaching the method of breath meditation and body scan. 

I have since sent messages to most people I talked to about the retreat to update them on my view of vipassana as taught by Goenka as an incomplete method. I hope I didn’t do irreversible damage. I suffered severe anxiety when realizing the possible repercussions of teaching the wrong dhamma.

[cat]

Thank you for correcting my view of the concept of Sangha. I’m sorry and I will be more mindful of my use of words. I didn’t see your answer before posting my previous message.

Money is another issue I’m struggling with. I don’t want to earn and preferably not deal with money anymore. I quit my job about a year ago and have tried to find some spark to find a new one. But seeing more and more truth in life, the thought of it seems almost disgusting and a waste of time.

[Lal]

There is nothing wrong with earning money. One has to earn money to live life unless you are a bhikkhu. Problems arise only when you focus on earning too much money.

• Buddha taught lay people to live moral lives, not miserable lives. He discouraged excess indulgence in sensual pleasures and, at the other extreme, submitting one’s body to suffering. He recommended the “middle path,” away from the two extremes.
• Eating well, exercising, and living a healthy life are essential. Our brains use 25% of the energy we get from our food. If you neglect to eat well, your brain may not function well. A healthy brain is necessary to understand Buddha’s teachings.
• You may get sick if you don’t eat and exercise well; taking long walks is an easy exercise. Otherwise, you will not be able to learn Buddha’s teachings. 
• Please read all my above comments carefully. You seem to rush into things. Relax and take the time to absorb the teachings.

• This reply was modified 8 hours ago by Lal.

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cat

[cat]

I can see that I havent expressed myself in an understandable way and will try to explain further. I am simultaneously learning about myself during this conversation. :)

I understand perfectly that I need to have a healthy body to learn and share what I Know (not what I don’t yet). That is why I said I might have to occasionally break sila if I’m to stay close to my family and help the people I owe first. Right now it feels ok to go without that much food actually. The mental suffering of breaking this is bigger than the bodily of enduring hunger, which doesn’t feel like any suffering right now.

I also just feel like eating once a day around 12 o’clock. This one is harder to Know for sure if it’s innate and it doesn’t feel like such a crime if I were to break that. I’m open for change though, I can always decide differently if a new (True) feeling would arise.

I think its perfectly ok for laymen to have a job and earn money. It may seem like I was being judgmental, which I apologize for in that case. I just mean to say that I have a natural stop sign telling me not to earn money in exchange of work anymore.

Donations are different because they are not associated with an expectation (I’m not asking for them either). I didn’t know how to express this before, even to myself, because I didn’t have the proper understanding of from Where these feelings were arising. The proper framework.

What Im trying to convey is that I have had an intuitive feeling growing for months before this realisation that seem to be in line with the “rules” that monks and nuns follow. Which is why I’m seriously considering joining a monastery. But first I feel like paying my debts with people who have been significant for me to reach this point in life by helping them back. 

As I said in the first post, I can now see that I have had this quest to become wiser for a long time in life. Starting in young years. It was just a whinding road and now I can make more sense of it all. 

I might seem to rush, but it’s a necessity for me to align my life as soon as possible with what I Feel is true. In truth I was quite upset when I first thought I had committed a horrible crime, but it’s getting clearer and clearer and I am calmer and calmer.

Im immensely grateful to have found your homepage, Lal. Thank you for providing this platform of knowledge for people to see what rhymes with their inner truth.

[Yash RS]

Dear Cat, Sila is something related to Intention. Cooking for oneself doesn’t involve any immoral intention, then why is it breaking a sila?

We live in a realm where we have to use effort in order to leave peacefully and survive, our lives are not self sustaining, our bodies require food and exercise.

If you want to truly achieve complete morality, spend the time learning Buddha Dhamma and Attaining Parinibbana, untill then no matter what we would be subjecting suffering onto other beings even though our intentions are pure, for example boiling water to kill bacteria, taking medicines, etc.

You don’t have to overcomplicate such things, live a decent life, it’s all about moral and immoral intentions.

Note that if you generate aversion or disgust towards anything, you are moving away from Nibbana!

Many Bhikkus preach to feel disgust towards this body in order to be free from Kama Raga. That is a complete nonsense! They are unknowingly generating aversion (Dosa) which would not lead you anywhere.

One must Realise that All These Pleasures are just a mirage and even after experiencing tons of different sensual pleasures, we are still unsatisfied!

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cat

[cat]

Thank you Yash RS, this made me see it in a new light and I should not call it sila. You’re right that it’s not immoral in that sense. I think I just want to focus my time More on dhamma.

And then, for a while, I had the wrong view that it could therefore be wrong to do something else (like cooking). A better word might be that it feels unfruitful right now.But as I said, now I’m open for that feeling to change so when I feel like it I will (and have) cooked.

And do not worry, my body feels fine and I take care of it. Still attached to this life.

Im appreciating all your answers as it gives me opportunity to develop my understanding.

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Yash RS

[cat]

Correction: Instead of “Still attached to this life.” (True though, but not in context of taking care of my body) I would rather write “Still determined to reach Nibbhana (at some point)”.

[Jittananto]

Cat, if I understand your situation correctly, you want to live as far away from the causes of greed and sensuality as possible. I understand, but as Sir Lal and Yash explained, there is nothing wrong with earning money and cooking for yourself. Many great lay disciples of Lord Buddha were millionaires (today they would have billions!). Of course, they had more than the minimum. However, they managed to attain the sotāpanna stage and other stages while retaining their fortunes. Lord Buddha’s father, King Suddhodana became an anagami and continued to fulfill his duty as a monarch.

So there is nothing wrong with money and food. What is bad is acting with ignorance (believing that food will give us happiness), greed (wanting to have all the food for yourself), and anger (eating to alleviate sadness). The same thing applies to money and the other 3 necessities (clothes, houses and medicine).

You seem inclined towards a life of total renunciation. I suggest only one thing to you, my friend, go and live in the company of the Noble Maha Sangha of Jethavaranama monastery. You have two choices there: either you train for two years to become a monk, or you stay as an anagarika with 10 precepts. The monastery will help you with the visa etc. Don’t wait, my friend; follow your desire to live the Dhamma fully. If you are interested, I can put you in contact with Sir Harsha, who is the layman responsible for organizing meetings with Bhikkhus. Ask advice from the venerable bhikkhus of the monastery and make a decision on what you want to do my friend.

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cat

[Lal]

Please note that the above are Jittananto’s thoughts. I (or this website) do not encourage nor discourage anyone from becoming a bhikkhu. It is a personal decision to be taken after careful consideration.

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cat

[cat]

Thank you Jittananto and Lal for your reflections. Moving to an environment that enables following dhamma more easily was what felt intensely true for a while and at the same time I felt like I’m still needed here. I have, thanks to you all, made peace with the thought that everything has its own time and that my journey might look different as long as I work in the right direction.

I am already in contact with the monastery. I didn’t get to speak to a monk yet, but they will organize a meeting. I think I will start with a visit at some point.

Metta to all

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Jittananto

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