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Tobias wrote: “My point is that I think this is not so clear described somewhere on your website.”
Yes. It is possible that in old posts the concept is not described in the same way.
– It is not easy to check for such posts. As you all know, I keep revising old posts as I come across inadequacies or even mistakes occasionally. The goal is to be consistent with the Tipitaka to the fullest extent.
– If you or anyone else come across such posts, please post in the forum or send me an email: [email protected].P.S.
The concept is discussed in more detail in the recent post: “Nāma Loka and Rupa Loka – Two Parts of Our World“
Thank you for your perspective, Lang.
– Yes. Many Theravadins also have misconceptions about gandhabba.
– But understanding the gandhabba concept is CRITICALLY important. That will become even more clear in upcoming posts.
– The dense physical body is secondary and the gandhabba (mental body) is primary. Sensory EXPERIENCE happens in the mental body. The next post will be critical to understanding that point.Your question/comment: “At any moment, there must be a lot more (if not infinite) gandhabbas waiting for limited wombs, since human wombs are finite; hence the importance of mother and father (as indicated in miccha ditthi #7 and 8).”
– That is absolutely right.
– There could be an uncountable human/animal gandhabbas waiting for a womb. That is more true for humans and “higher womb-born animals” than for “lower animals”.
– That is because one’s gati must roughly match those of the parents to get into a womb.TripleGemStudent wrote: “I asked myself “why am I practicing the Buddha dhamma for?” Since after this jati, if there’s a next bhava/jati, I wouldn’t be able to remember anything from this jati, as well it won’t be the current “I/me/self” that is suffering or enjoying, why should I care what happens to my next bhava/jati?.”
Yes. That is a question that comes to the mind of many people when I try to explain that there is no “soul” going from one life to another AND it is also not the case that they are totally different.
The answers that you have come up with are all valid.
Another way to look at it is the following.
1. You are not the same as when you were a few years ago. That is true in both your rupa and your mindset (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana).
– However, you have the same PERCEPTION of “me” and “mine.”
– Those children who describe their previous birth always have that perception too. They say “I was this and that. I died this way, etc.”2. In some births (for example, peta or hungry ghost births), one can recall what happened in previous lives that led to that particular birth (just like those children can their past life.)
3. If anyone cultivates jhana (Ariya or anariya) to the fourth jhana, they can see their past lives as well.
Even though the PERCEPTION of “me” is not correct in the ultimate sense, the suffering is real. That is the main point. Suffering does not stop until that perception of “me” goes away at the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one only realizes that the perception of “me” is not correct AND that is why one is engaged in the rebirth process in the hopes of “enjoying life”.
– But that craving for enjoyment (kama raga) itself is the cause for future rebirths!
– One thing that Susima Thero explains well is the dangers of kama raga.These discourses are entirely consistent with those of Waharaka Thero. But they provide some new insights.
One thing of interest is his explanation of attaining the Sotapanna stage.
We know the following:
– One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami by first hearing about the correct interpretations of Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana. All three present the same Buddha Dhamma in three different ways.
– One becomes a Sotapnna Anugami by hearing/reading about these explanations. If one really comprehends, one ‘sees” that the rebirth process is a “cause and effect” effect and that there is no “self” or a “soul” going through various rebirths. However, since there is a causal connection among all those rebirths, one cannot also say that rebirth happens without there being a previous “satta” existing in one of the realms.
– When one contemplates these concepts (as a Sotapanna Anugami), those concepts become firmly established in one’s mind at some point. That is the Sotapanna phala moment.In summary, Susila Thero says the following.
– One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when one gets rid of Sakkaya ditthi by removing both ucceda ditthi (there is no rebirth process) and sassata ditthi (that there is a “soul” or “atman” or “a vinnana” going from one life to another. This requires the first two conditions of Sappurisasaṃsevana and saddhamma savana, i.e., learning the true Dhamma from a “Noble friend.”
– Then one becomes a Sotapanna when one gets rid of any uncertainty about that after contemplating (yoniso manasikara) and living according to that Dhamma (dhammanudhamma patipada). That is when both vicikicca and silabbata paramasa (two other samyojana necessary for the Sotapanna stage) are removed.
– So, it is an interesting point. Furthermore, he seems to think that the “phala moment” can come at any time, not necessarily while listening to a discourse.We have discussed those four conditions at, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”
“But mano sankhara belong to vipaka citta and do not generate kamma. ”
Yes. mano sankhara arise in vipaka citta. But those vipaka citta are also contaminated to VARYING DEGREE for ANY citta other than the Arahant phala citta.
– This is a technical point. But if one digs deeper, one can understand Buddha Dhamma at a deeper level.1. All citta have 7 universal cetasika and vedana, sanna are two of them. Thus, vedana and sanna arise with ANY and ALL citta.
– Mano sankhara are defined as, “vedana sanna mano sankhara.”
– Therefore, Tobias is right that even vipaka citta have mano sankhara.2. However, ANY citta contaminates AS IT ARISES in a very fast process in 9 stages. That “contamination level” depends on the person (one’s gati) and also on the particular thought object (arammana.) See, “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)”
– Even an Arahant’s citta gets “contaminated” up to the “manasan” stage. Unless it gets to the “manasan” stage, one is unable to recognize a person as one’s mother, for example.
– However, in an Arahant phala citta (experienced only when an Arahant is in Arahant phala samapatti), that Arahant is at the initial PURE citta stage. There the Arahant is only AWARE that he/she is alive. This is called a pabhassara citta.3. Therefore, the bottom line is that even vipaka citta are contaminated at varying degrees.
– Mano sankhara are also defined as “mano sancetana mano sankhara”.
– There the “sancetana” part takes int account the AUTOMATIC contamination of a citta as described above.4. However, those sankhara DO NOT become abhisankhara until we start consciously accumulating more “san” or “raga, dosa, moha” by repeatedly and consciously thinking (vitakka/vicara) IF we get attached to that arammana.
– This is why vaci sankhara are defined as “vitakka vicara vaci sankhara” as explained in the post on vaci sankhara that I referred to in my original reply.5. That is why mano sankhara do not lead to STRONG kamma, especially those responsible for rebirth.
– It is only vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara that can lead to strong kamma leading to rebirth, or even kamma vipaka of significance during lifetimes (like getting injured).Thre following post and other posts referred to there can provide more information: “Vipāka Vēdanā and “Samphassa jā Vēdanā” in a Sensory Event”
Please don’t hesitate to ask questions. One can get a deeper understanding by “digging deeper.”
But the most important thing is to stop bad vaci and kaya sankhara (bad vaci and kaya kamma). We will become conscious of them when those airse. That is the basis of Anapana and Satipatthana meditations.
– As I have emphasized many time, vaci sankhara is NOT limited to speaking. If one CONSCIOUSLY think with raga, dosa, moha, those are also vaci sankhara.Two points:
1. Mano sankhara still contribute to akusala kamma (because they get generated due to avijja).
– However, those are “weak” kamma and do not lead to rebirths, i.e., they are not abhisankhara.2. The way to ultimately control mano sankhara is to control vaci and kaya sankhara and thereby reducing one’s bad gati.
– That is the key to Anapanasati/Satipatthana.I have revised the post “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)” to explain that.
– More details are in the post, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra” referred there.All ten types of akusala are done with saṅkhāra via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”
There is no need to follow “rules” especially if one is not a bhikkhu.
– The main point is one needs to eat when one is hungry.
– As one cultivates the path, one will automatically lose CRAVING for food (or any other sensory pleasures.)
– But you already seem to be there!It would be a good idea to read the recent post, “Vinaya Piṭaka – More Than Disciplinary Rules”
The following is from that post:
4. For many years after the Buddha’s Enlightenment, there were no disciplinary rules for the bhikkhus. Those who ordained as bhikkhus in those early years had fulfilled most of their “pāramitā” and did not need much clarification of dhamma concepts. They also were ‘self-disciplined,” and it was not necessary to impose rules.
– Most Vinaya rules were set up to handle particular situations where one or more bhikkhus had done things that were not appropriate. The Vinaya Piṭaka provides background accounts for many such cases. Such accounts provide insights into dhamma concepts as well as providing reasons for enacting such rules.
– For example, there was no rule for the bhikkhus to abstain from eating after Noon. There were few other reasons to impose that rule, but one reason was to discipline those who started wearing robes to “live an easy life.” That rule was enacted probably after 20 years or so, and by that time, most people had become faithful followers of the Buddha. They held bhikkhus in high regard and took care of all their needs.
– There is an account in the Vinaya Piṭaka for another reason for that rule. One bhikkhu went for an alms-collection after dark, and a woman had thrown dirty water from a cooking pot at the bhikkhu because she could not see him.1 user thanked author for this post.
Thank you, Jay!
I just revised the first post on this thread to revise the link.
Thanks to Johnny too!
Dr. Egnor (a neurosurgeon) has more videos on the subject:
The words “pancakkhandha” and “panca upadanakkhadha” could sound too abstract.
It could be easier to visualize “world” and “those things in the world that one craves“.
Each person’s “pancakkhandha” or the “world” is his/her own.
– In the same way, “panca upadanakkhadha” is one’s own. Different people crave different things.With those cravings, a person would think, speak, and do deeds via mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara with the hope of “enjoying life.”
– But one generates MOST of those sankhara with avijja (“avijja paccaya sankhara“), because one does not realize the long-term bad consequences of such desires. In particular, any immoral deeds done (with the mind, speech, or actions) WILL lead to dangerous consequences.It is good to think in terms of Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, and Tilakkhana. They are all inter-connected.
– Of course, the “big picture” of a rebirth process among 31 realms must be contemplated.Thank you for clarifying that, Jay.
Yes. It is possible that I missed that part you quoted above. I will try to listen to it again and will post if I see anything otherwise.
It is commendable that Venerable Bhikkhu Samāhita provided those insights.
It must be noted that these details about the manomaya kaya (gandhabba) are not available in detail in the Tipitaka.
– Those details were in the Sinhala Atthakatha (early commentaries) that have been lost.
– So, it is only when a Jati Sotapanna like Waharaka Thero (who had learned these details in a previous life) is born and is able to provide details, that we get to see the details. Not all Jati Sotapannas can provide such details either.
– Those details can be backed by recent findings in science. Furthermore, many accounts of rebirth stories, Near-Death Experiences, Out-of-Body Experiences, etc. are now available thanks to the internet. Both provide invaluable supporting material to this complex subject.The role of the manomaya kaya is very important since the physical body is just a shell. It dies in about 100 years, but the manomaya kaya (gandhabba) may live for thousands of years in the human bhava.
– A fly lives only a week or so, but that “fly bhava” (or the existence as a fly) may last many thousands or even millions of years.) So that fly lives in the gandhabba state too.
– As we have discussed, the gandhabba state is not there in Brahma and Deva realms. Their bhava and jati are literally the same. They are born once in those bhava.TripleGemStudent asked: “Have I understood this correctly? At 39:57 of the video. The subtitle says the “Dukkhaskandha (the aggregate of suffering) is panchaskandha. Is that the same as saying the pancakkhandha is dukkha?
I have been contemplating on this recently and still am. “Is the Pancakkhandha dukkha?” The answer that I’m able to come up with, pancakkhandha “is” dukkha, but it’s not the cause of dukkha..”
Yes. You understood correctly.
– Pancakkhandha is dukkha.
– But one is still “engaged with pancakkhandha” because one had made causes for the current human body to ARISE via panca upadanakkhadha (i.e., craving for pancakkhandha) in previous lives.
– This current body is a RESULT. It will have to bear any suffering that comes with it (Ven. Moggallana was beaten to death, and even the Buddha had some ailments and an injury).We need to ALWAYS think about suffering from INSIGHT/WISDOM, and NOT with FEELINGS.
The CAUSE of FUTURE suffering is panca upadanakkhadha.
P.S. In other words, what an average human perceives to be “pleasure” is actually the CAUSE of future suffering (only Noble Persons, who have comprehended Noble Turths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana, can see that).
I did not see Jay’s comment since he had replied to my post on April 28, 2020, above.
Jay wrote on December 3, 2020, above: “More importantly, all of the above, from Ajahn Samāhita’s talk, seems to align—remarkably closely!—with the concepts of gati, gandhabba, hadaya vatthu, and nāma-lōka presented in the various, related posts on those subjects here on this site..”
That is right. Venerable Bhikkhu Samāhita’s ideas, as I remember, are close to what I have discussed.
However, the only problem that I saw was the following. He seems to suggest that it all happens in the brain.
– Even though he mentions that the Tipitaka refers to concepts like gati, gandhabba, hadaya vatthu, he had not connected those with the manomaya kaya. He mostly talks about brain processes.
– If my impression is not correct, please let me know. I can re-listen to that discourse to refresh my memory.Hello Jay,
Sorry that I missed your post.
1. Namaloka is the same as vinnana dhatu. I think you will understand it if you read all the posts in the following subsection. The post that you referred to is one in that subsection.
“Our Two Worlds – Rupa Loka and Nāma Loka”
2. I prefer to use the term “nama loka” rather than “vinnana dhatu” since it makes it simpler to understand.
– The rupakkhandha is associated with the rupa loka or the five dhatus: pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa.
– The four mental aggregates (vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankarakkhandha, vinnnakkhandha) are associated with the nama loka or vinnana dhatu.3. If you have questions after reading that subsection, please don’t hesitate to ask questions.
– But please refer to the specific post and bullet numbers.The link provided by Christian did not work. I have provided a valid link for the pdf.
That book was written by Dr. Chula Goonasekera.
He sent me a copy to proofread, and I did not have time to go through it. But I did make some suggestions on the spelling of Pali words.
– I see that he has not changed the spellings but has made a comment about it at the end of the Preface.
– The above is the final version that he sent me recently.Sri Lankans spell Pali words in a unique way according to how the words are actually pronounced. Therefore, the Pali word “anicca” is written as “anichcha,” for example.
– See, “Tipitaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1” and the second part referred to in there.As I mentioned to the author, I did not have time to go through the booklet.
– But if anyone has questions, please refer to the relevant page number.
– If I cannot respond to a question, I can ask him to respond.
