[Lal]

“I already know/see/understand that the panca upadanakhhanda CAUSES suffering, but I have been contemplating on to see if the pancakkhanda IS (not cause :)) suffering.”

That is a subtle point, It may depend on how one uses words to describe “meanings.”

The way I look at it is as follows.
– If there is a bottle of poison on the table, it is not going to hurt anyone.
– But if one drinks that, one will be subjected to suffering.

In the same way, pancakkhandha is like a bottle of poison.
– One will be subjected to suffering if one craves pancakkhandha, i.e., it is pancupadanakkhandha that leads to FUTURE suffering.

For example, an Arahant has removed part of suffering in this life. That is sankhara dukkha (an Arahant would not generate (abhi)sankhara, and thus “samphssa-ja-vadana” would not arise in an Arahant.
– However, dukkha vedana due to past kamma will still bring suffering until the death of the physical body.

[Lal]

The folowing post is from TripleGemStudent:

Key words Lal always says “future suffering” and “suffering in the rebirth process”. It sounds so simple, but it really has deep meanings, not easy to understand on a deep level at all . . .

Lal says:

“Craving for sense pleasures leads to future suffering.”

Seeing from the sankhara perspective, we do abhisankhara to chase these kama assada’s and we end up with jati’s (we’ll use a body for this example). In return, we end up having to do more sankhara to manage our bodies and if we chase kama assada’s while managing our body, we end up doing more abhisankhara. It’s like . . . abhisankhara —> sankhara —-> abhisankhara —–> sankhara . . . It’s like a vicious cycle -_-;;

After my last post, there was something that I realized, I apologize if some of you already know this or seem so simple. I thought I would share anyways because I didn’t realize it or were able to see it this way.

I believe that all sankhara is suffering because there’s always a mental/physical exertion/strain component to it. Living and learning/practicing the Buddha Dhamma, we’ll always need to do some form of sankhara. For instance, we need food, be able to breath, mental energy, etc . . . What I didn’t realize was that NOT being able to do sankhara to manage oneself when one has a body is dukkha as well !! It’s like I’m in dukkha either way. . .

Of course having attained Nibbana and not having to do any sankhara’s in the first place is the most ideal . . . But that’s not the case for all of us, since we’re all here right now . . .

Imagine for us not being able to do/carry out the necessary sankhara’s to learn/practice the Buddha Dhamma, that would be the greatest suffering. At anytime unexpected situations like illness, body pains, mundane affairs can interfere with our ability to learn/practice the Buddha Dhamma or even our ability to do the necessary sankhara’s to live a comfortable life. I have to do sankhara to live, learn/practice Buddha Dhamma, but if I can’t do the necessary sankhara’s to manage myself, learn/practice the Buddha Dhamma, I suffer too!!

Sabbe sankhara dukkha . . . Yup sounds about right . . .

I think I might have realized something as well . . . Anyone please feel free to share your thoughts/opinions… To me it seems like:

Sabbe sankhara annica
Sabbe sankhara dukkha
Sabbe dhamma anatta

and

Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ niccaṃ vā aniccaṃ vā”ti?

“Aniccaṃ, Bhante.”
“Yaṃ panāniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vā taṃ sukhaṃ vā”ti?

“Dukkhaṃ, Bhante.”

“Yaṃ panāniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipari­ṇāma­dhammaṃ, kallaṃ nu taṃ samanupassituṃ: ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?

Is the same, but worded differently? If it’s the same, then would it be appropriate for me to substitute the word “sankhara” for rupa, vedana, sanna, vinnana? Like:

Sabbe rupa anicca
Sabbe rupa dukkha
Sabbe dhamma anatta

etc . . .

I already know/see/understand that the panca upadanakhhanda CAUSES suffering, but I have been contemplating on to see if the pancakkhanda IS (not cause :)) suffering. I think I might have my answer and be able to give the reasons for my answer. But I’ll save that for another post.

[Lal]

“Realization of dukkha through wisdom and not through the vedana citta’s”

That is exactly right.
– The Noble Truth of Suffering is NOT the dukkha vedana.
– The cause of those dukkha vedana is the craving for sensory pleasures (kama assada). That is the Noble Truth on suffering.
– To stop future suffering one must remove those cravings for sense pleasures. That is not easy to do. The first step is just to realize the truth of that statement. That understanding starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage and is firmly established in the mind at the Sotapanna phala moment.
– Then the cravings for sense pleasures start to reduce at the Sakadagami stage and mostly go away only at the Anagami stage.

I will start a new series soon to explain that in yet a different way.

To put it in another way:
– An average human thinks that sense pleasures are good and one must seek them. Sankhara dukkha is mostly associated with such pursuits of sense pleasures.
– The Buddha taught that reality is the other way around. Craving for sense pleasures leads to future suffering.
– However, that craving CANNOT be removed by will power. The first step is to clearly SEE (and understand) why the Buddha said that. It is embedded in Paticca Samuppada. The series of steps that lead to suffering start with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. It is those (abhi)sankhara (done with avijja) that lead to future suffering.

[Lal]

Sotapanna Anugami wrote: “Dukkha dukha, tendency to change and suffer is taken from Venerable Waharakha Thero’s desana.”

– Waharaka Thero’s desanas are sometimes not translated correctly. The English translation can depend on the translator. I have emphasized that in the thread that has several of Waharaka desana translated. P.S. See my comment on June 13, 2020 at 6:58 am at “Waharaka Thero English Subs Discourse”
– That is why I translated one of them. But it takes too much time.
– So, I want to emphasize that SOME parts of the Waharaka desanas may not be correctly translated.

The three types of dukkha can be summarized as follows:
– Dukkha dukkha is mainly kamma vipaka that manifest in the physical body: injuries, sicknesses, body aches/pains, etc.
– Sankhara dukkha is the suffering associated with one’s efforts to acquire more sensory pleasures. One has to work hard to make a living and to acquire “things’ that we perceive to provide happiness.
– Those things that we acquire breakdown and break apart. Furthermore, our bodies also start degrading at old age and die. Both those lead to distress and that is the viparinama dukkha.

Those are the main ideas but can be described in more detail.
– See, for example, “Introduction – What is Suffering?“

[Lal]

“Buddha is referring to Arahanthood, but isn’t Uddhacca removed only at arahant stage?”

Yes. That is right.

“So does Abandoning the hindrances mean removing them completely then getting into Jhanas OR removing them by contemplating them in the next 4 Jhanas? ”

– Here is a key point to understand. There is a HUGE difference between mundane (anariya) jhanas and Ariya jhanas.
– Anariya jhanas attained via anariya techniques like breath meditation. Hidden defilements (anusaya) for raga, dosa, moha NOT removed by those techniques. Those defilements are merely SUPPRESSED.
– One gets to Ariya jhanas by removing layers of anusaya (at different levels) in successive jhanas. At the fourth jhana, one has removed even the avijja anusaya completely.
One must be at least an Anagami to GET TO the fourth jhana.
– One can attain the Arahant stage by cultivating the fourth jhana and then cultivating higher arupavacara jhanas, and then eventually getting to the highest arupavacara jhana and getting to nirodha samapatti. This is one way (step-by-step) to attain Arahanthod (cetovimutti)
– One can get to Arahanthood also via vipassana (insight meditation) from any of the Ariya or anariya jhana (or even with upacara samadhi, which is just below the first jhana). That is the other way of pannavimutti.

Each of us (and even any animal) had cultivated all anariya jhanas in our deep past.
– That is why getting attached to jhanic pleasures is NOT a good idea.

An Ariya (a Noble Person) automatically GETS Ariya jhanas when he/she cultivates the Path.
– One SHOULD NOT cultivate jhanas with the expectation of experiencing “jhanic pleasures.”
– An Ariya ALWAYS takes Nibbana (discarding worldly things) as the arammana or the main goal.
– If one takes a worldly object (such as breath or a kasina object) as the arammana, that WILL lead to an anariya jhana.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jittananto

[Lal]

Sorry about the delay in replying. I am on travel and in a different time zone as well.

The sutta that you refer to require setting up the background. I think there was a discussion on this topic in an old thread here. But I don’t have time to look for it right now.

Let me give a brief outline.

King Yama is one of many “judges” in the nirayas. They are like our judges in a way.

People who have done clear-cut bad deeds automatically are born in the appropriate nirayas.
– However, when there are “borderline cases” that are sent to these “judges” like “King Yama”. Those judges interrogate such persons and make a determination whether they should be “saved” from the nirayas.

“messenger of the gods” referred to in the sutta refer to the advice from the Devas”.
– Devas always want humans to do good and be born among them.
– Those who don’t heed such advice engage in bad deeds and are unable to avoid births in the apayas.

That is essentially what is meant by “messenger of the gods” that King Yama referred to.

There are many things about this world that we are not aware of. It is not worthwhile to look into fine details.
– The Buddha described such scenarios to warn people about the price they will have to pay if they engage in immoral deeds.
– There are some graphic details about the sufferings (torture) in such nirayas in this and a few other suttas.

[Lal]

The Sotapanna phala MOMENT cannot be “experienced” in real-time. It comes and goes within a split second.
– What happens is that one slowly becomes aware of significant changes in one’s gati and general state of the mind over weeks and months.

In Buddha Dhamma, a kalyana mittā does not have to be a “friend” that one regularly associates with.
– In my case, for example, my kalyana mittā was Waharaka Thero. But I did not even get a chance to meet him. He passed away in 2017.
– He became my kalyana mittā soon after I found his discourses on the internet.
– A kalyana mittā is someone who can help you make progress on the Path. Of course, one can have many kalyana mittā. In general, bhikkhus and laypeople (with magga phala) can be kalyana mittā to anyone.

[Lal]

Hello Sotapanna anugami,

First, I am impressed that you have turned your mind to these issues at the tender age of fifteen.
– That is not an accident. It is possible that you have been fulfilling “paramita” in your past lives.

So, even though no one can be certain, it is quite likely that you have a tihetuka birth.
– That was one of the questions you asked.

From what you have written, you seem to have the necessary background to learn Buddha Dhamma.

But I just wanted to make sure that you understand the following.
– Just engaging in sense pleasures (especially eating good food or avoiding physical hardships) is not a hindrance to progress. In fact, one needs to be healthy to cultivate the path.
– The problem is CRAVING sensory pleasures. One with such cravings constantly thinks about MORE sense pleasures.

But the way to get rid of that craving is NOT through pure willpower, i.e., abstaining from good food, etc. to the extent that one becomes depressed or in some cases even becoming frail and sick.
– Such cravings will naturally disappear as one learns deeper Dhamma.
– In particular, when one really understands Paticca Samuppada one will see extreme greed can lead to bad rebirths like in the peta (preta) or animal realms.

Yes. Learning the Sinhala language can be beneficial. However, one should not put that at the top of priorities. In particular, you should finish your studies and get a decent job to make a living. Of course, you can be fully engaged with learning Dhamma while you study.

As for English discourses, I have a set of discourses here: “Tilakkhana – English Discourses”
– There is another, more basic, set in the “Living Dhamma – Fundamentals”
– The “Living Dhamma” section has many posts on Pali.
– Those discourses are now old. I hope to do some more in the future.
– Also, the “Tables and Summaries” section has a glossary.

May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you in your efforts!

[Lal]

There is an important point that we need to take from the above discussion.

“Seeing”, “hearing”, etc happen in the MIND when the corresponding pasada rupa makes contact with the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind).

– Those things DO NOT happen at the eyes, ears, etc. OR in the brain.

Therefore, six types of vipāka viññāna arise via “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sōtañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjāti sotaviññāṇaṃ,…” in the mind.

The physical body (with eyes, ears,…and the brain) arises because of our craving for sensual pleasures (i.e., to eat tasty food, smell the nice aroma, and to touch/have sex).
– But those come with causes for suffering (injuries, diseases, etc.)

People who see these problems with sensual pleasures cultivate jhana and start valuing such jhanic pleasures. Those are the ones that are reborn as Brahmas.
– However, the suffering does not end. Those Brahmas also have finite lifetimes.
– When they die they come back to the kama loka and start over.
– Then, of course, rebirth in the apayas is hard to avoid.

Thus, to attain Nibbana one MUST see the drawbacks of all those births.
– There is no existence in ANY of the 31 realms where DEATH is absent.
– Any “jati” (birth) has suffering built-in.

December 23, 2020 See the relevant post published yesterday: “How Do We See? – Role of the Gandhabba“

[Lal]

There are many things people do not understand.
– I am not sure how much of the following can be understood by each person. But this a good “teachable moment.”

Does anyone know how we HEAR a sound with ears?

1. Think about what happens when you hear someone say your name from a few feet away.
– When that person speaks, a “sound wave” propagates through the air. It is similar to a “wave” that you see when a stone is dropped in a lake, propagating out.
– As that wave propagates, the wave dies down and beyond a certain distance, that sound cannot be heard.
– When that “pressure wave” reaches your ears, your eardrums vibrate and those vibrations are picked up by nerves and transmitted to the brain. The brain processes that “information” and passes it over to the sota pasada rupa.

2. Now, we can record that speech and re-broadcast even over long distances. That is how we hear radio stations broadcasting from miles away.
– That “sound wave” was n NOT propagated through the air. It propagates as an electromagnetic wave. It could be even sent over space where there is no air (broadcasts from the Moon).

3. In both those cases, what really matters is how our BRAINS process those sound waves received by the ears, and then the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) HEARS IT with the help of the sota pasada rupa.
– That is where the MAGIC takes place! How does the brain convert the vibrations of the eardrum (caused by a pressure wave) to a signal that can be HEARD by the MIND?
– That is a 100% kammic phenomenon (meaning it is totally under Nature’s control). We have NO IDEA what happens there. We just KNOW that it happens. The Buddha DID NOT explain that MECHANISM!

4. The “sensing of the sound” happens AT THE hadaya vatthu (with the help of the sota pasada rupa).
– The original sound can get from point A to point B as a pressure wave (in the air in ordinary situations), as an electromagnetic wave (even through empty space in the case of a broadcast).
– A mechanism somewhat related to the latter case may be in effect for “direct communication” between two Brahmas (or from a Brahma to the Buddha or someone with iddhi powers).

This is really a fascinating subject. In particular, think about how we “see”. There is no “light” in the brain or anywhere else inside the body. Yet, we PERCEIVE light and SEE a tree, house, person, etc.
– That “magic” happens at the hadaya vatthu, in this case with the help of the cakkhu pasada rupa.

However, I don’t what to spend too much time on this subject.
– I just wanted to convey that there are many things in the world that we DO NOT fully understand.
– As the Buddha said, it is enough to understand how future suffering arises.
– On the other hand, it is reasonable to spend some time to illustrate the soundness of Buddha Dhamma. When we combine what he had taught with modern science, we can get a much better idea about our world than even scientists specialized in their fields.
– That is why I write posts like “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body”
– My hope is that it will help cultivate real sadda (faith) in Buddha Dhamma.
– But such details are not necessary to comprehend the Noble Truths. Still, they may be helpful for some people.

[Lal]

y not asked: “Communicate, yes, but is it not only one-way? ”

What does that mean?

Speaking with a mouth and hearing with an ear is not possible, for example, for rupavacara Brahmas.
In the same way, for them, seeing does not require physical eyes.
– It is a totally different mechanism.

[Lal]

TripleGemStudent wrote:
“For rupa Brahma’s since they are missing the faculties of “touch” and “taste”. Without taste, that means they don’t have a mouth. How do they communicate with Lord Buddha?”

Yes. The answers by y not and Sharma27 are close.

The succinct way to say that is the following.

It is the sota pasada rupa that makes it possible to communicate with others.
– Rupavcara Brahmas (as well as human gandhabbas) communicate directly (without words) via that sota pasada rupa.
– It is only when the gandhabba is trapped in a physical body that mouths and ears (and air vibrations for sound propagation) are needed to communicate.
– Arupavacara Brahmas (and those in the asanna realm) do not have the sota pasada rupa. That is why they cannot communicate with others.

I have discussed some of this in the section, “Origin of Life“. See, for example, “Mystical Phenomena in Buddhism?“.
– Also, see, “Brain and the Gandhabba“

[Lal]

Sharma27 wrote: “The country I am from has a lot of thriving and vibrant spiritual processes. Even though the final end of suffering cannot be obtained by most of those processes, it is well worth(my) time to know the Dhammic analysis of those processes…”

Yes. But those curiosities cannot be satisfied by reading accounts of other yogis. That is an endless process.

My suggestion is to read the sections, “Origin of Life” and “Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach”

I think this discussion has gone far enough.

[Lal]

Thanks, Triplegemstudent! But the correct reference is not that.

Seng Kiat sent me the following comment.

Here is the sutta on the householder Ugga of Vesālī:
“Manāpadāyī Sutta (AN 5.44)”
English translation at Sutta Central

Below are the verses concerning the householder Ugga after he passed away:

11.1 Then after some time Ugga passed away,
Atha kho uggo gahapati vesāliko aparena samayena kālamakāsi.

11.2 and was reborn in a host of mind-made gods.
Kālaṅkato ca uggo gahapati vesāliko aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji.

11.3 At that time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.
Tena kho pana samayena bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.

11.4 Then, late at night, the glorious god Ugga, lighting up the entire Jeta’s Grove, went up to the Buddha, bowed, and stood to one side. The Buddha said to him,
Atha kho uggo devaputto abhikkantāya rattiyā abhikkantavaṇṇo kevalakappaṃ jetavanaṃ obhāsetvā yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṃ ṭhitaṃ kho uggaṃ devaputtaṃ bhagavā etadavoca:

11.5 “Ugga, I trust it is all you wished?”
“kacci te, ugga, yathādhippāyo”ti?

11.6 “Sir, it is indeed just as I wished.”
“Taggha me, bhagavā, yathādhippāyo”ti.

Thanks and much merits to Seng Kiat!

I have highlighted the relevant verse regarding Ugga’s rebirth: “aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji”
– That means “born with a certain manomaya kāya.”
– That usually refers to a rupavacara Brahma. Even though an arupavacara Brahma also has only a manomayaṃ kāya, he would not be able to communicate with others (in this case, the Buddha).

Therefore, all we can say is that Ugga was reborn in a rupavacara Brahma realm. The sutta does not say anything about that Brahma‘s magga phala.

[Lal]

The word “dhamma” may have different meanings depending on the context.

1. In Buddha Dhamma it refers to “teachings”.

2. The verse that you refer to “eva me tassa dhammanan samudhayo hoti” in Kusala-Mula P.S. refers to “an understanding of Buddha Dhamma”. Specifically, it refers to understanding the Noble Truths.
– That verse is the last step in Kusala-Mula P.S.
– That becomes clear when you look at the corresponding last verse in the Akusala-Mula P.S.: “Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti “

3. However, in most cases, “dhamma” refers to “anidassana appatigha rupa” that makes contact with the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and generates mano vinnana.
That happens via, “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– These dhamma are the ones that bring kamma vipaka at times and also bring past memories to the mind.

[Author]

Posts