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“If the Gandhabba is not embodied, there are no “bodily” sensations? I mean, there are no sensations generated through utuja kaya and impinging on “kaya pasada rupa”?”
– How can there be “bodily sensations” if the physical body is not active??
“When Gandhabba is not embodied, it should also feel bodily sensations due to the impingement of kaya rupa from within, i.e. from utuja kaya, right?”
– No. When the gandhabba is out of the body, there will be no bodily sensations, because the body would be like a piece of wood.
“There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?”
– Yes.
– You may have read V. S. Ramachandran’s popular book, “Phantoms in the Brain” (1998). If not, that would be a good read.
– Also read the post, “Vision (Cakkhu Viññāṇa) is Not Just Seeing” I mention that book there.This issue has been discussed at length in two threads. Following is a post of mine in one of them:
“Triplegemstudent wrote to me and we had a discussion via email. I am just going to post one of my emails and his last email.
My email:
This issue was discussed at:
“Post on “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”
The essence of the discussion is in my following reply there, close to the top of the thread, was as follows:“Dr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.”
Then I asked the Triplegemstudent:
Would you take that offer?
Imagine the worst suffering that you ever experienced in your life.
– Suffering in an apaya is MUCH worse. We can get a glimpse of it by thinking about an animal in the wild (not a pet). How many old animals are in a jungle? They are eaten alive as soon as they get a bit old.Following is part of the final response of the Triplegemstudent:
“I read the whole discussion before and that’s why the idea/thought came to my mind. I wasn’t able to find a satisfactory answer including what you, myself or anyone answered. In my previous e-mail before this one, what I was trying to say was what I came to realize is what me and Dr. J Chakam is/was thinking/saying how we spend more time in the Brahma realms and therefore “should” be enjoying more pleasure is the wrong/incorrect thinking.
Because rather one is enjoying more pleasure or suffering, it’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta in any of the 31 realms of existence. As long as we’re stuck in the rebirth process Sansara, not attaining Magga phala or Nibbana, the end result is always more suffering. And like you said, the suffering in the apaya is much worse and possibly greater > than any pleasures we receive.
So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.
Because that 9 and 3 months is both Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta I shouldn’t/don’t want to even to get involved with the pleasure or suffering in the first place because all that is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. It’s better to attain Magga Phala/Nibbana, so that I don’t even have to make such a decision/or be in that position like in your example in the first place.
This is what I meant when I said, what me and Dr. J Chakma was thinking is wrong/incorrect.”
My comment:
I am impressed by his reply.
He wrote: “So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.”He realized the deeper aspect of it. That is in a way the First Noble Truth that the Buddha was trying to explain.
– What we PERCEIVE to be a pleasure (in sensory pleasures or even in jhanic pleasures in those Brahma realms) has “hidden suffering.” The more one is enamored by them, the more difficult it becomes to be able to free of ALL future suffering.*****
The above comment was posted on September 15, 2020 at 2:24 pm in the thread “First noble truth”
*****
Daniel’s other question:
“In Ven Bodhi’s book on Abhidhamma, on page 230, he lists the rebirth-destinations for individual realms. Are these correct in your opinion? According to these, a Brahman would not immediately go to hell in a next bhava, but would be reborn as Deva or human and could go to hell or apāyā in a bhava after that.– Yes. I agree with that. A Brahma would not be born directly in an apaya upon death.
“I’m not sure what source is (AN-a 9:21).”
It is ” Tiṭhāna Sutta (AN 9.21)”
English trnslation there: “21. In Three Particulars”
– Note that Jambudipa” is incorrectly translated as, “India” there.No. I don’t recall where I got that information. But I am sure it exists in the Tipitaka because it is either something I heard from Waharaka Thero or I saw it somewhere in the Tipitaka.
– If someone knows, please post.Anyway, it is not worthwhile to spend time on these aspects to great extent. Of course, these have the benefit of enhancing saddha. But there is the issue of time too!
– Time is better spent on learning Dhamma concepts.From the above link by Lang, the informative rebirth account is at:
Thanks, Daniel.
I am not sure whether I referred to a relevant sutta there. The following sutta describes that there are a thousand world-systems of which ours (Earth-based life) in just one. Furthermore, there are an uncountable number of such “clusters.”
“Paṭhamakosala Sutta (AN 10.29)”
– “..sahassaṁ jambudīpānaṁ sahassaṁ aparagoyānānaṁ sahassaṁ uttarakurūnaṁ sahassaṁ pubbavidehānaṁ” refer to those 4 human abodes within ours. Of course, we can see only the jambudīpā or this Earth. This also confirms that jambudīpā is NOT India or Sri Lanka. It includes all countries where humans live (those we can see).
– A reasonable translation there: “Kosala (1)”Different Buddhas are born in different clusters. This is why the Buddha said this kind of analysis is unthinkable for average humans. See, “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“.
– A reasonable translation there: “Unconjecturable“I think your questions of a “self” will be answered in the upcoming posts in the new section:
“Basic Framework of Buddha Dhamma“All types of bhava start with a hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa.
– That set can be called “manomaya kaya.” So, any living being has a manomaya kaya.Brahmas and Devas are born with that manomaya kaya AND a “physical body.” They live their whole lives in that state. Those “physical bodies” of Brahmas and Devas are, of course, at a much less density compared to “human bodies.”
Humans and animals are born only with the manomaya kaya at the patisandhi moment. They start making “physical bodies” after getting into a womb.
– However, such manomaya kaya can become a bit dense due to inhaling the aroma of plants, flowers, etc. Thus the name gandhabba (gandha + abba).The other 3 realms in the apayas can be complex. For example, a hell-being is said to born with a full physical body. They get “killed” often due to torture, but are reborn instantaneously until that kammic energy is exhausted.
You wrote: ” I wanted to write another post on the topic of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw, but it seems that the topic is closed.”
– Which three is that? If you post the link I can re-open it.That was an old post and I just revised it.
Thanks to DanielSt for bringing it up.
– Please read the post and ask any unanswered questions.Revised post: “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralōka)“
Theravada Buddhism was brought to Burma and Thailand from Sri Lanka in the first century CE. See, #17 of “Preservation of the Buddha Dhamma”
So. Yes. The Europeans found copies of the Tipitaka in several countries.
– But they also found Mahayana documents AND Vedic documents too, especially in India.They had no idea how to sort out all those things.
Furthermore, Buddhism had declined in all those countries. In fact, there was a revival of Buddhism AFTER the Europeans got interested.
– You should read the book “The Search of the Buddha” by Charles Allen (2003).
– That book is mentioned in #7 of the post, “Misinterpretation of Anicca and Anatta by Early European Scholars.”
– Those days, most Asian “scholars” went to universities in European countries to study Buddhism! It was European scholars in those universities (including Prof. and Mrs. Rhys Davids) who made the critical decisions on how to interpret verses in the Tipitaka!; see #11 of that post.By the way, I am working on your other question on Tirokuddha.
It turns out that I have a copy of the book that DanielSt referred to. I must have read it some years back. I just glanced through it.
In Part Three of the section “The Sammaditthi Dipanai,” there is a discussion on the concept of “attā.”
– I read through the first few pages of that section and it is quite clear that his teachings were very much influenced by the Europeans.
– At the beginning of the book there is a Biography of Ledi Sayadaw. Towards the end, it says, “In 1912 he was awarded a title by the British government.”The “conversion” of Buddhist concepts started much earlier than 1912.
– For example, I refer to a book by James D’Alwis, that detailed the “Tipitaka English” convention, published in 1870:
“Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1“For me, this would require a lot of effort to understand how Ven, Sayadaw explained anicca and anatta. I simply do not have time to go through his teachings.
The new series of posts that I started recently is on this subject. It will take a while to go through this series, but you will be able to make a better comparison:
“Buddha Dhamma – Noble Truths, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana”More on Pali resources:
“It looks like for ariya jhana, the higher the jhana, the more things cease.”
– Actually, that holds true for anariya jhana as well.
– However, it is not possible to enter Nirodha Samapatti, i.e., the last step is not possible with anariya jhana. That is because defilements are only SUPPRESSED in anariya jhana, whereas an Arahant has eliminated all defilements.“We’ve also learned that Nirodha Samapatti can last a maximum of 7 days. From this I speculate that the physical body on its own can stay alive for 7 days without the Jīvitindriya cetasika?”
– That is correct. The physical body is kept alive by the jivindriya rupa, not the jivitindriya cetasika.
