[Lal]

@Siebe regarding the working of kamma in the airline crash over Ukraine: This is related to the annantara samanantara paccaya (don’t be discouraged by the tittle):
Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya

The conditions became suitable for a strong kamma beeja (for each person accrued at possibly different times) to ripen at that time. The key is to realize that we all have billions and even trillions of kamma beeja piled up over our deep past; so, it is possible that there could be many people subjected to the same incident such as that plane crash. We also see that sometimes there are miraculous survivals.

Let me make some general comments that could be helpful (I am spending a lot of time on this issue, because I think it is an important topic for all; grasping basic concepts is critical in following Buddha Dhamma).

First, an important thing to realize is that the three types of kamma are done by Mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara:
Sankhāra – What It Really Means

Then, there are two ways to look at this problem of kamma and kamma vipaka.
1.One can try to analyze and figure out how vipaka arise with kamma (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions; but they all originate in the mind). But one may not able to figure out the finer details.
2. One can take Buddha’s word that bad vipaka arise due to bad (immoral) kamma, and good vipaka arise due to good kamma. This basically means one lives one’s life avoiding dasa akusala and cultivating kusala.

The Buddha also said that kamma is one of five things that a normal human cannot fully comprehend. Instead one should try to get the basic ideas involved. More deeper analyses involve paticca samuppada (cause and effect) and patthana dhamma (conditions for causes to bring in effects). You can search for relevant posts using the “Search” box.

The best approach is to do both 1 and 2, but 2 must have the priority. This is because with 2, one can start feeling the benefits of a moral life (calmness of mind) and that also helps understand concepts in 1. This is discussed starting from basic levels in the Bhavana (Meditation) and Living Dhamma sections.

Furthermore, one can read the posts under this forum topic from the beginning and that should help too.

Finally, even though kamma is not deterministic, one can get trapped in kamma/kamma vipaka cycle (as we all have been so far), as long as we do not comprehend the real nature of this world (avijja). The only way to get out of this cycle is to attain Nibbana by comprehending Buddha Dhamma (by following the Noble Eightfold Path).

This vicious cycle of “vipāka” leading to “kammā” leading to more “vipāka” is the process that binds us to the sansara of endless rebirths, or perpetuate our “world” of suffering.
The Buddha described this as, “kammā vipākā vaddanti, vipākō kamma sambhavō, tasmā punabbhavō hōti, evan lokō pavattati“.

That means, “kammā lead to vipāka, vipāka in turn lead to kammā and thus to rebirth (punabbhavō), and that is how the world (existence) is maintained”.
There “sambhava” is “san” + “bhava“, or “adding more existences”. Also, “lōka” is world, and “pavatta” means “maintain”. See:
How Are Paticca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?

As I said above, without doing both 1 and 2 above, it is not possible to make progress.

[Lal]

“But kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. The mind is connected with the mano loka. Why is dhamma (e.g. kamma beeja) not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?”

For the same reason that sound is detected through the ears. Mana indriya in the brain can suffer damage (or degrade as one gets old) and one can have memory problems. Alzeimers is possibly due to mana indriya being degraded. This is why the physical body is called “vipaka kaya”. It is capable of imparting kamma vipaka in so many ways.

“How can an arupa brahma sense dhamma without mana indriya?”
It is likely that even rupavacara brahmas do not have a mane indriya and the hadaya vatthu can directly detect signals (dhamma) from the mano loka. In fact, for human gandhabbas it is the same: They don’t have eyes but can see, don’t have ears but can hear. They just cannot touch and taste. Regarding smell, though, it seems that gandhabbas can inhale aroma. I am not sure what that mechanism is. We will never be able to figure out all the finer details, unless somewhere in the Tipitaka.

[Lal]

First of all, it seems if one hits the reply button, one can directly respond to a comment by that specific person (i.e., one’s comment will appear below that comment or that thread). The the reader need to scan to find the new comment (especially if there are newer threads at the bottom).

If one just keep typing in the default window, then the comment will appear at the very end of the discussion, as a new thread. Anyone will be able to see that as the latest comment, but then needs to refer to the comment that he/she is responding to.
I am going to try the second option here.
It seems that it would have been better if Tobias typed his response not as a reply to Johnny’s, but to mine (or just typed in the default window to start a new thread and referred to part of my comment so that a reader can trace it). It could take us some time to sort out the best way. One needs to decide which way is better.

Tobias G. said, “Here I have my problem with the mana indriya. The mana indriya is part of the body or located inside the body. Why is it needed to sense kamma (beeja)? As I understand kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. Why is kamma beeja not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?
The same question applies to the mechanism of recalling memories from nama gotta. A brahma in arupa loka has only the hadaya vatthu, no mana indriya, right? If so, how can a brahma sense nama gotta or kamma beeja?”

My response: Bodies of living beings in different realms are formed by the corresponding kammic energies to be able to impart various types of kamma vipaka suitable for those realms.

Since beings in kama loka are born there because of their cravings for pleasures through the five senses, their bodies are formed to be able to enjoy such pleasures, but then also subject to suffering through them. For example, one cannot enjoy sex without body touch (kaya indriya), and one cannot enjoy food without taste (jivha indriya), etc.

But each of those indriya can “go bad” either with age or as results of previous strong kamma (like getting cancer in the body or in the tongue, etc). That is one mechanism of delivering kamma vipaka to beings in the kama loka.

Rupavacara Brahmas are born there because they had lost their cravings (at least temporarily) for olarika (rough) sense pleasures. So, they do not need to sense body touch, smell, or taste and those indriya are missing; furthermore, they can receive rupa and sadda without physical senses.

Arupavacara brahmas have lost cravings (at least temporarily) for even those rupa and sadda. That is why they just have the hadaya vatthu.

These are discussed to some extent at:
Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya
Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body

[Lal]

Yes, Johnny.
But in addition, our memories (nama gotta) are also recalled with this mechanism (via mana indriya). The ability to recall memories from past lives comes with abhinna powers. Of course, some children (usually under 10 years or so) have the ability to recall the previous life. Then that ability goes away when the mind gets cluttered with worldly desires.

[Lal]

I just opened a new topic in the Abhidhamma forum, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi) – Grave Error on p. 164” to address Tobias G‘s comment on Dec 27, 2017.

[Lal]

Difference between moha and avijja:
Lobha,Dosa, Moha versus Raga, Patigha, Avijja

[Lal]

@Siebe about sunburn:

If I did not know about you, I would think you are trying to pull my leg (that you are joking).

Sunburn depends on the amount of sunlight and how long you have been exposed. You have not mentioned those two critical factors. If you can be more specific about them, that would help. It looks like the in #2, the Sun was not that bright compared to #1.

[Lal]

Johnny Lim asked the following questions:

“Is the famous Schrodinger’s Cat experiment trying to depict this phenomenon of Quantum Superposition?”

It is a bit different. It involves the decay of a radioactive substance, even though some people try to make a connection.

“Are rupa kalapas a cocktail mixture of satara mahā bhūta?”

Yes. That is what is described in the post (specifically #2 and #12, among others).

“I know of some Theravadins who taught practitioners to discern rupa kalapas and the nature of satara mahā bhūta in order to discern ultimate materiality and mentality in order to fully penetrate the first Noble Truth…”

That is not possible. Rupa kalapas are formed within a billionth of a second and only a Buddha can discern such things.

In order to discern the ultimate materiality and mentality (or the nature of matter) one needs to have the yathabhuta nana (even that is not necessary if one comprehends the anicca nature, which CAN BE also be realized without knowing about the ’theory”). The new post on yathabhuta nana provides the theory.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “2. kamma-vipaka refers to what happens as a result or consequence of an intentional act. So, when i decide to take a shower, the nice feelings of the warm water are kamma-vipaka because they are a result of my decision to take a shower. The feelings do not arise from a good-kamma beeja, but they arise as a result of contact with nice warm water.”

Yes. It is a kamma vipaka (result of an action). Taking a warm shower leads to a nice feeling.

It is not necessary to connect all kamma to kamma beeja that last into future lives. Some actions have results right away, or during the current lifetime (called dittadhamma vedaniya kamma). For these, one could say the kamma beeja uses its power right away or at least by the end of the lifetime. Long lasting kamma beeja are there for other types of stronger kamma where results can appear in future lives.

[Lal]

That is correct.
I now see the root cause of your confusion.

Kamma is action (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions). Kamma vipaka is what happens as a result of that action. Without understanding that one cannot even begin to comprehend laws of kamma, let alone other concepts in Buddha Dhamma.
What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?

I am beginning to understand why intelligent people get confused about Buddha Dhamma. They do not have a good grasp of fundamentals.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “.When i decide to stand on one leg, and as a result feel pain, is this pain due to a bad kamma-beeja ripening, or has it just a physiological cause.”

I have explained in detail why the decision to stand on a leg is NOT a kamma vipaka. Please read above and let me know the points that you don’t agree with.

Let me try another way to explain this, since this is important to understand.
This is exactly what one needs to do in Satipatthana. In this particular case of moving a body part it is Kāyānupassanā. When a thought comes to the mind to stand on one leg, one needs to think about the consequences of that action. If it is a beneficial act then one needs to do it; if it is a detrimental act one should not (as I explained in detail above).

This is no different than deciding to hit someone. When such a thought comes to the mind, one needs to realize that it is a bad bodily action.

Many people tend to focus on lobha and dosa as immoral. But moha is immoral too. The decision to carry out an act that one KNOWS will lead to suffering for oneself or others is immoral.
See the post on Kāyānupassanā for more details:
Maha Satipatthana Sutta

P.S. As Akvan said, it is possible that the thought to stand on one leg MAY come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. But the ultimate decision is up to the individual. Otherwise, working of kamma will be deterministic and no one will be able to attain Nibbana.

[Lal]

Yes. I also agree with all three comments by Siebe, Vince, and Akvan above.

It is indeed not possible for any living being, including an Arahant, to fully comprehend the wisdom and capabilities of a Buddha. I discuss this a bit at:
Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency

Even though an Arahant attains the same Nibbana as a Buddha, the capabilities of a Buddha can be matched only by another Buddha.

Siebe said: “We now tend to belief, based on craving and avijja and identifying with khandha’s, that we are ‘a human’, an “I”, a subject, a living being, a person, a man or woman, but that is only due to deeply ingrained habits.”

That is the essence of Buddha Dhamma. When one realizes that it is not fruitful (and also dangerous) to crave for things in this world, one’s various gathi will slowly dissipate. At the end, at Arahanthood, there will be no “gathi” left, except for harmless habits devoid of defilements. The dangers seen at the Anagami stage, for example, cannot even be fathomed at the Sotapanna stage (dangers of kama raga).

[Lal]

Nothing happens without a cause. In modern science, each event can be attributed to a cause (more likely many causes). One can believe whatever one wants, but there are laws of nature.

Kamma is action by the mind, speech, and body done with intention (based on lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha).

We do millions of such kamma a day, and most are not strong. But each one has consequences. Just like every action has a reaction in physics, each kamma has a consequence.
So, it is impossible to figure out how trillions of past kamma lead us to experience many types of sense inputs a day.

Only when we experience bodily pain (dukha) or bodily pleasure (sukha), those are due to strong past kamma. In other cases, some sense inputs are brought in and any suffering (or pleasure) that we experience is mind-made (somanassa/domanassa), also called “samphassa ja vedana”. Also see the topic:
Could bodily pain be due causes other than kamma vipaka?

All this is hard to explain in a post. As one learns Abhidhamma, one may be able to figure out. However, it is not necessary to fully grasp this complex issue. But it is not difficult to see the truth of the framework, based on its validity. It is the same as believing things that physicists have stated, even though one may not have studied physics and thus may not be able to comprehend the finer details. Of course, it is good to understand as mush as one can.
Just as in science, the complex theory of Abhidhamma can be proven wrong only if serious inconsistencies can be pointed out. That is how scientists throw away “bad theories” that cannot explain a new observation, and build faith in “good theories” as long as they are consistent with each new observations.

[Lal]

Tobias G said: “Can someone please send the link to Abhidhamma with the statement about “bodily pain is always due to kamma vipaka”? Or is there no English translation?”.

The “conventional English source” for Abhidhamma that I normally consult is the book, “A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, by Bhikkhu Bodhi (2000), which I will call Ref. 1 below. See:
Abhidhamma – Introduction” for information.

In Ref. 1, p. 52, out of the 54 types of citta associated with the kamal loka, 1 is for (bodily) pleasure and 1 is for (bodily) pain. There are 18 with joy (somanassa), 2 with displeasure (domanassa), and 32 with neutral (equanimity). The latter 20 types are what I have discussed as “samphassa ja vedana”.

Those 5 types of vedana are discussed briefly on p. 116 of Ref. 1.
BI am sure similar descriptions are available in the “free eBook” by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, mentioned in the above post.

Siebe said, “But is this the case when one decides to stand on one leg? Is that an immoral decision, is it kammically evil or black deed? Is it akusala? Maybe in the sense of ‘not-skillful’ but i would not say in the sense of immoral or evil.”

Just to stand on one leg is a foolish act, if it is done without any other possible effect in mind. Everything does not need to tied up to moral/immoral. Deciding to cross a busy street without looking is not a moral/immoral; it is just foolish. Actions have consequences, and one does need to consult suttas to figure out.

Siebe said, “Maybe one decides to stand on one leg to raise money for people with cancer.The motives are very good but one suffers immense pains.”

Those are two kamma (two intentions): the action of standing up on one leg (with that intention) WILL lead to pain no matter what the other intention is. Here, the other intention is to raise money and that is a good kamma (done by the mind or a mano sankhara), and may bring good benefits in the furture. The first was a kaya sankhara (to move and keep the leg up).

Just because one BELIEVES one has good intention does not necessarily mean it will bring good vipaka. Suicide bombers think they are doing a good deed by killing others and that it will bring good results for themselves and their families, but that is just being foolish.

People do foolish actions believing that they will bring good results in the future. These are due to micca ditthi or wrong views.
It does not matter who is doing the action. The Bodhisatva (not the Buddha) subjected his body to harsh punishments and had to face the consequences later in the life (some of the ailments were due to those hardships that the body went through).

This is why panna (wisdom) is critical. We don’t need to consult suttas for everything. Somethings we can figure out by ourselves after we learn the basics from the suttas. The fact the standing on a leg leads to pain is a no brainer. If there is no other intention (like doing it for charity), then it is just a foolish act. The goal of Buddha Dhamma is to avoid pain as much as possible.

There is an easy rule given by the Buddha to figure out what actions are good or bad:
Do it:
1.If it is beneficial to oneself. 2. If it is beneficial to others.
Don’t do it:
3. If it is detrimental to oneself 4. If it is detrimental to others.
If a given action involves 1 or 2 AND 3 or 4, then both good and bad vipaka can materialize. One has to figure out whether the benefits outweigh the bad consequences.

In the last example Siebe gave: there will be bad consequences of jumping into the fire (burning). Good consequences in future for saving a child. Laws of kamma can be complex. But these are simple ones that we can figure out easily.

In all these examples, the decision to act is NOT a kamma vipaka. The decision (to stand on a leg or to jump into the fire) is made by the individual on his/her own volition. So, most of this discussion is outside the topic.

We also need to remember that it is impossible to avoid (inadvertently) doing things that are harmful to others. When we cook or even boil water to make a tea, millions of lifeforms are destroyed (by the way, those do not bring bad vipaka, because they are not intentional). They can be avoided only by getting to Parinibbana. In the meantime, we just need to be mindful and do the best we can. That is Satipatthana.

[Lal]

Yes, D. This forum topic is a good. Thanks for starting it.

I am familiar with this particular meditation technique through his book, even though I have not attended one.

Based on what I have read, one gets to samatha with breath meditation and then is supposed to do vipassana meditation.

1. Could you elaborate on what is involved in vipassana? What does one meditate on during the vipassana?

2. Breath meditation is not the anapana meditation taught by the Buddha:
Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?
Has anyone questioned the instructors of this issue? Any others who have attended can comment too. I am just curious.

Kind Regards, Lal

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