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Hi Tobi,
Some of what you wrote is not correct. But please continue with your efforts to get a consistent picture.
Here is one example. You wrote, “So, if we now assume that we no longer have a human body, we would not have the five senses that trigger the Vatthu Rupas and the Mano Indriya with which we can receive dhammā from the Nama Loka. We would only have the Gandhabba, i.e. our Bhava body, and the Hadaya with the connection to the Nama Loka. (That would still be the Rupa Loka level or Rupa Dhatu level)”
1. A gandhabba can see and hear while outside the physical body; it can also receive dhammā from the nama loka.
- But a physical body is needed to experience the “direct contacts” of taste, smell, and touch. (Compare that to seeing a tree, which does not need to make contact with the physical body directly. Light bounces off the tree and brings “an image of the tree” to the eyes. In the same way, sound from a car reaches your ears as vibrations that propagate through air, again not a direct contact.)
2. The essence of a human is the gandhabba inside the physical body. If the gandhabba comes out of the physical body, that physical body is like a piece of wood. It does not sense anything.
- The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and nerves on the body’s skin can only help us detect external signals (sights, sounds, smell, taste, and touch). They receive those signals and pass them to the brain. The brain processes those signals to a form that can be understood by the gandhabba inside.
- If the gandhabba comes out of the physical body, it can still see and hear, but without the help of the physical body, it cannot smell, taste, or touch anything. That is the experience reported by those who had “out-of-body experiences”: “Mental Body (Gandhabba) – Personal Accounts.”
3. The following posts may help clarify:
“Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body” and “Our Mental Body – Gandhabba“
- A more advanced post is.”Brain – Interface between Mind and Body.”
4. It may be a good idea to have a summary page where you draw a picture and make notes to see how this complex process takes place.
- Let me know if you have any questions on what I wrote above.
Thank you, Yash and Gad!
1. I listened to most of the discourse. It is good. In particular, after around the 1-hour mark, Thero’s discussion of the “origins of the sensual pleasures” is excellent. As he explains it is made up by the mind. That is what I called “distorted saññā” in my recent posts.
- He discusses how “distorted saññā” arises. For example, the actual origin of a “taste” is a chemical signal that the brain receives. That signal is taken as a “pleasurable” by the mind. Based on that, the mind attaches with raga, dosa, and moha, and generates a “defiled saññā.”
2. The critical point here is that the receptiors in a pig’s tongue are wired differently compared to a human’s.
- Thus, while a a piece of rotten meat will taste great for a pig, it tastes yucky/disgusting for a human.
- In the same way, rotten meat or feces will smell bad for a pig, but a human finds that smell repulsive.
- It is just a matter of how sensory receptors are wired differently in a pig versus a human.
3. The second critical point is: That “wiring” is done by kammic energy.
- The “wiring” matches the “gati” of each sentient being.
- I will discuss that in upcoming posts.
4. Therefore, that discussion will help you understand my recent posts discussing “distorted saññā” and “defiled saññā.”
- See, for example, #8 and #12 of “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and #9 of “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”
5. There is nothing intrinsically “tasty” or “disgusting” in a piece of rotten meat or anything else!
- The same holds for all sensory inputs. A given object that looks desirable to one species may appear repulsive to another species. We don’t find grass to have any appeal, but a lush patch of grass looks appealing to cows. Even among humans, “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder” as the commonly used saying goes.
- How “distorted saññā” gives rise to “mind-made vedanā” may be hard to believe but that is the truth discovered by the Buddha.
6. Types of vedanā (including “mind-made vedanā”) are discussed in many posts : For example, “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka?” and “Vēdanā and Samphassa-Jā-Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings.”
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1. It is human nature to defend one’s belief to the end.
- However, scientists are trained to follow the experimental evidence.
- Once there is enough undeniable evidence, they will start looking for a better explanation.
- We may have to wait for the next generation telescope to “see even further into the universe” and see stars much older than 14 billion years.
2. The other “domino to fall” will be the wrong belief that humans “evolved from the monkeys.”
- Things in this world NEVER go from “worse to better” naturally, i.e., without an effort. That is the “anicca nature.”
- If we want to make life better, we have to invent new technologies by spending time and effort. That is part of the “sankhara dukkha“!
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Hello Ravi,
Yes. We had the following discussion in the forum recently:
“The Big Bang May Have Never Happened?“
Also, you may not have seen the following post, which describes Buddha’s version:
Attaching to “pleasurable things” can be stopped in two ways.
(i) Think about the long-term “bad” consequences of such attachments, especially if such attachments lead to doing immoral or unwise deeds.
(ii) At a deeper level, any attachment takes a mind away from the “suffering-free state” (pabhassara citta). Furthermore, what we perceive to be “tasty,” “beautiful,” or “good-smelling,” etc. are all made up by our minds. It is what I call “distorted sanna” in the post below. Even though we cannot eliminate those sensations of tastiness, etc. (even an Arahant experiences them), by comprehending that mechanism, we can stop the subsequent attachment. That is what an Arahant has done to get to Arahanthood!
It could be a bit harder to see (ii) above. But if one can comprehend it, then it will make stopping attachments much more effortless.
- This is what I tried to explain with the new post “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”
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Hello Tobi,
“Then it should be 7 dhātus and not 6 dhātus, like in the table!
Namely, Mano dhātu (or manoviññāṇa dhātu), Patavidhātu, Apodhātu, Tejodhātu, Vayodhātu, Akasadhātu and Kāmadhātu, for an Arahant?”- The six dhātus include everything in the world. Kāma dhātu, rupa dhātu, and arupa dhātu (and kāma loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka) are three parts of the world.
- An Arahant belongs to Nibbana. However, the physical body (a vipaka) of the Arahant is still in kāma dhātu (but not in kāma bhava) until the death of that physical body.
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I have not translated the Ratana Sutta. But your post has a good enough description. Thank you!
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A couple of points to emphasize:
1. When we attach to a sensory input (ārammaṇa), it is pañca upādānakkhandha (or pañcupādānakkhandha) that arises, and NOT pañcakkhandha. This is a subtle point that I also did not pay attention to in the past.
- Therefore, in many instances, I may have written pañcakkhandha in some places where it really should be pañcupādānakkhandha. This is a common mistake that many people make. The tendency is to think that we attach to pañcakkhandha and then it becomes pañcupādānakkhandha. Even my teacher, Waharaka Thero, has made it sometimes.
- Keeping that in mind, you may want to read the posts in the section”The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha).”
2. Both pañcakkhandha and pañcupādānakkhandha are “mental”: see “Pancupādānakkhandha – It is All Mental.”
- Also see “Manomaya Kaya (Gandhabba) and the Physical Body.”
3. The above can become clear easily with the comprehension of a series of posts I posted recently: “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind.”
- When a citta vithi ( series of thoughts) starts based on a sensory input (arammana), the mind starts with a distorted/defiled sanna (perception) and also wrong views (miccha ditthi). Even for a Sotapanna who has removed miccha ditthi, distorted/defiled sanna (perception) arises automatically.
- Thus, a “pure mind” (pabhassara citta) with pañcakkhandha arises only in an Arahant!
- I have discussed that in “Sensory Experience – A Deeper Analysis.”
- You can get to the posts in #3 later on. But I wanted to emphasize it to those who have read the website for a while.
Hello JKSCJ,
You wrote, “From what I understand, no part of the panchakhanda carries forward at the end of a particular bhava.”
Why (or how) did you come to that understanding? That is the critical question.
There are 11 types of rupa included in rupakkhandha, as pointed out in #7 of “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha.”
- The same applies to the other four “khandhas” of vēdanākkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññānakkhandha.
- The records of the five khandhas are preserved as “namagotta.” Of course, we cannot recall most of them, even within our lives. But those with iddhi powers (even some anariya yogis) can recall their past lives. A Buddha can recall as far as he wishes.
- Also, see “Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM)”
Nicely done, Gad! Thank you!
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Thank you, Seng Kiat.
- We thought of notifying others again about this “popup” dictionary because one of the readers used it and wrote to us to let us know it was useful.
- He wrote the following: “This dictionary works well and feels quite helpful to me, mainly enabling me to navigate through your website more easily. “
- If anyone uses it, please let Seng Kiat know about it here on this thread. He was the one who put it together several years ago. As you all know, he is a co-keymaster for this website and maintains the eBook too: “Pure Dhamma Essays in Book Format.”
- Much merit to Seng Kiat and his family for all his efforts!
Yes. There is no point for an Arahant to live in pain.
- While living the rest of their lives, Arahants have to bear any pain and suffering that comes to their physical body that was born due to a kamma vipaka.
- Arahants live to help others attain Nibbana.
- Thus, if the pain is intense (like in the cases of those Arahants) there is no point in going through the rest of their lives.
This issue was discussed also in “Advice to Channa – Channovādasutta; MN 144“
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Q1. Saṅkhata dukkhatā is the same as saṅkhāra dukkhatā.
Q2. They do have a one-to-one correspondence. I think that is discussed in the above post.
- However, that can be seen more easily with the new analysis based on “uncovering the suffering-free mind” of the pabhassara citta that I started with a series of five posts in “Buddhism – In Charts” (five posts starting with Chart B).
- I have continued that discussion in “Does “Anatta” Refer to a “Self”?“
- In upcoming posts, I will get to the origin of the three types of dukkha using this approach. I think this will provide a much better understanding of many aspects, not just the three types of suffering.
- It would be hugely beneficial to understand the above-mentioned posts. That way, one can keep up with the upcoming posts.
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