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I had missed the comment by y not because he had posted while I was replying to the comment by cubibobi.
Y not wrote: “In life we see that we can enjoy the pleasant, but have to pay for that by experiencing the unpleasant as well. It is the two sides of a coin. You must accept the unpleasant in order to have the pleasant. Nibbana would here equate with rejecting both – throwing away the coin. Free of the unpleasant, yes, but at the price of giving up on the pleasant.”
Mostly correct. But samsaric suffering and any trace of happiness (even if in a Brahma realm for millions of years) cannot be equated as “two sides of a coin“. This is the point to contemplate on. That Brahma will come down to the human realm and will succumb to temptations and WILL BE born in an apaya at some point. Even a few days of suffering in some apayas will be unbearable.
There are many suttas in Samyutta Nikāya 56 that describe the dangers for living-beings trapped in the rebirth process. See, for example, suttas starting with “SN 56.35 A Hundred Spears”
Here is a brief summary of the sutta SN 56.35 in my words:
“Bhikkhus, suppose there is a man with a life span of a hundred years. Someone would say to him: “You will be guaranteed of getting to the Arahanthood if you agree to be pierced by a spear three times a day for the hundred years of your life.”
Bhikkhus, he should accept the offer. For what reason? Because this rebirth process is filled with unimaginable suffering.
Even though that may be so, bhikkhus, I do not say that path to the Arahanthood is filled with suffering or displeasure. Rather, the Noble Path is accompanied only by happiness and joy.
Bhikkhus, you need to understand: ‘This rebirth process is filled with unimaginable suffering. The Noble Path is the way leading to the cessation of all that suffering.’Many people are misled by the term “Nibbanic bliss” thinking that it is a vedana to be FELT. As I have explained in the post on Nibbana in my earlier post, we CANNOT express what Nibbana is like (after the Parinibbana of an Arahant). Because NOTHING of this world (including feelings, perceptions, thoughts, etc) are in Nibbana.
– However, there are instances in the Tipitaka where new Arahants utter joyous verses expressing the “bliss.”
– That can be compared to what one feels when one had just gotten rid of a chronic headache that one had for the whole lifetime. Imagine the relief! That is not a “sukha vedana” but just the absence of a piercing dukkha vedana.
– But no one can express the status of an Arahant AFTER the death of his/her physical body.
– But that lifestream WILL NOT be subjected to even a trace of suffering FOREVER. That is all we can say.Cubiboi wrote: “It sounds like the arahant has gone beyond attachment to mother (and I suppose father too), and that micca ditthi #7,8 of the ten types of micca ditthi no longer “apply” to an arahant.’
Yes. That is correct. We have to go in steps. One must first live a moral life respecting one’s parents.
– The Arahant stage is not even comprehensible to most of us.You wrote: “I once heard a desana from a thero about going beyond attachment to parents and children. To paraphrase: “In samsara we have had countless parents, and have been parents to countless children, so why are the current pair of parents and the current children more special.”
I’m wonderding now if the thero was speaking from the vantage point of an arahant, that an arahant looks at all beings as their parents and children at some point.”
Yes. That is the perspective of an Arahant. But it is fine to see that point, as long as one does not stop taking care of one’s parents.
– Before we get to the Arahant stage, we need to “settle some of our debts” too. We must be grateful to our parents for giving us the opportunity to get a human body. There are numerous gandhabbas anxiously awaiting that opportunity.The other point is that sensual pleasures come at a big price, and that is hard for us to see. I will try to explain that in the next post to some extent.
The above discussion may be unsettling for some because it may give the impression that “one would be annihilated” at Parinibbana.
The deeper point is that the perception of a “self” is an illusion. However, until one attains Arahanthood, it is not correct to say that there is “no-self.”
– That is why it is not a good idea to spend too much time contemplating this issue at the beginning.One MUST follow the path in a step-by-step manner. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
The Buddha never promised a “happiness” in the sense of a “kama assada” or “sensual pleasures.”
– In fact, he showed it is our tendency for upadana for sensual pleasures that keep us bound to the rebirth process (samsara.)For an average human “happiness” is the ability to enjoy sensual pleasures.
– In Buddha Dhamma, “permanent happiness” means just stopping ALL future suffering.
– There is no “vedana” cetasika in Nibbana to “feel” happiness in the mundane sense.It is not easy to comprehend this deeper truth. That is the message embedded in Tilakkhana. That it is unfruitful, and dangerous to stay in the rebirth process HOPING for sensual pleasures.
– Those sensual pleasures come at a big prize. One would be subjected to MUCH MORE suffering than any pleasures enjoyed on a temporary basis.The following video gives the idea of that predicament. The monkey WOULD NOT let go of the grains in the hand even though it is quite clear that it will be captured if it would not. The hunter could have killed the monkey if it wanted.
“How to Catch a monkey”We also WILL become helpless if we do not gradually lose our upadana for sensual pleasures. But that loss of cravings comes ONLY with the comprehension of the “real nature” or the yathabhuta nana.
– See, “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering”P.S. When one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, one will “SEE” the truth of what I described above. That it is unfruitful and DANGEROUS to consider “there is a “self” or “me” in the ultimate sense.
– However, the DESIRE for sensual pleasures goes away only at the Anagami stage.
– Therefore, it is critical to see the difference between “seeing the true nature” and actually abandoning the fruitless process of “pursuing sensual pleasures.”
– The PERCEPTION of a “self” or “me” goes away only at the Arahant stage. One needs to get there step-by-step.Yes. There are many suttas in the Tipitaka.
There is a book that has taken parts from the Tipitaka and provides a lot so information. See,
“The Life of the Buddha” by Bhikkhu Nānamoli”The following essay also provides a good summary:
“A Sketch of the Buddha’s Life – Readings from the Pali Canon”For each sutta, more than one English translation can be found at Sutta Central, for some suttas. For example, MN 36 is one of the suttas mentioned and here is the link for that:
“The Longer Discourse With Saccaka (MN 36)”Each sutta mentioned in the summary has only part of his life before giving up life as a “householder.”
Regarding Lang’s questions above:
Yes. There is a difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “nirōdha samāpatti“.
– In “Arahant phala samāpatti” citta can flow, but they are TOTALLY uncontaminated. Thoughts are in the first stage of the nine-stage evolution of “citta, manō, mānasan, hadayaṃ, pandaran, manō manāyatanam, mana indriyam (or manindriyam), viññāna, viññānakkhandha“.
See, “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)”
– On the other hand “nirōdha samāpatti” is like what happens AFTER Parinibbana. Absolutely no citta.To complete the story, a living Arahant’s citta gets to the third stage of citta evolution, the “mānasan” stage. That is why a living Arahant can RECOGNIZE a person as mother, father, a beautiful woman, etc.
– But since it does not get to the “hadayaṃ” stage, the Arahant would have no special attention for mother or ANY attraction to a beautiful woman versus an ugly woman.
– So, the citta of a living Arahant does not even get to the “hadayaṃ” stage let alone to the viññāna stage.
– An Arahant in Arahant phala samāpatti is just AWARE that he/she is alive. He/she will not even experience ANY external arammana. He/she will not see, hear, anything. There is a sutta that describes the following situation. The Buddha was in Arahant phala samāpatti once, and lightning struck and killed a couple of people closeby. A large crowd of people came to see that and the Buddha was not aware of it until he came out of Arahant phala samāpatti.
– I recommend reading the post referred above.The NON-REVERSIBLE cooling down (“niveema”) happens in stages. First is at the “Sotapanna Anugami” stage when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana. Then it is completed at the Arahant stage.
– Of course, there is “cooling down” or ‘niramisa sukha” even before the “Sotapanna Anugami” stage, but that is reversible. If one, later on, starts moving away from the path (mostly due to external influences), then it may be lost.Yes. Nirōdha samāpatti is the closest to the state of an Arahant after Parinibbāna. No flow of cittā.
The following post is from cubiboi (Lang):
Hi,
I have some follow-up questions/thoughts from the thread in
Post on “Memory Records-critical part of five aggregates”
… but I thought it would be more relevant here.
In the other thread, the words asankata dhātu caught my attention since they made nibbana a little more “concrete”. I went back to this thread to review, and I also reread this post:
Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
I then couldn’t resist churning those abstract concepts in my mind and wished to have them clarified.
Under #16 in Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti
… we have:
“Arahant phala samāpatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cētasika, where the saññā cētasika is not contaminated. Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that).”
So the asankata dhātu makes contact with the phassa cētasika in the pabhassara citta, and thus here is the “interface” between “this world” and Nibbānā.
Can we also say that the asankata dhātu is “everywhere”, and when the citta is purified to the pabhassara stage then it is “seen”?
Proceeding to nirōdha samāpatti, even the phassa cētasika (plus the other 6 universals) also drop, and it’s almost “all” asankata dhātu (plus the jivitindriya rūpa). Then at parinibbana, it’s “total” asankata dhātu. The path to parinibbāna is one of dropping cētasikā (from asobhana to sobhana to the universals) and all rūpa. Looked at in this way, the asankata dhātu is then the only “real thing” (the only thing “left standing”) at the end of it all.
Also under #16:
“When an Arahant is not in nirōdha samāpatti or Arahant phala samāpatti, his/her citta get only to the “manō” state, in the sequence that normally ends up in the viññānkkhandha state for a normal human”This means that the ordinary experience of an arahant is NOT viññānkkhandha like the rest of us, since viññānkkhandha is already defiled. If we were to make up a word to describe an arahant’s daily experience, perhaps it could be “manōcittākkhanda”?
Going “down” to the other magga phala stages. I often hear descriptions such as “One becomes a Sōtapanna at the first glimpse/taste/realization of Nibbāna. And the experience of Nibbāna gets “deeper” at subsequent stages.”
Here, the “experience of Nibbāna” has to be the cooling down (“niveema”) that Lal told us numerous times. It can’t be the contact with the asankata dhātu since the citta of a Sōtapanna, Sakadagami, and Anāgami is not the pabhassara citta.
Again, just some thoughts I couldn’t help after seeing the words asankata dhātu. I appreciate any clarification or feedback of anything erroneous.
Best,
LangP.S. Finally, I now realize that all description of Nibbāna I read elsewhere has been nirōdha samāpatti (without the author using these words). Nibbāna was an either/or thing, and it sounded so “unattainable”. Here, learning about the different levels of “cooling down” gives one more hope that the Sōtapanna stage is attainable.
The following is from Hojan in reply to the request by Aniduan above.
Here’s live streaming from “Dharmayai Obai Jethavanarama Viharaya”
“Streamed LIVE from Jethavarama Viharaya Monastery, Ingiriya, Sri Lanka. To join future sermons live tune in to our LIVE YouTube stream every Sunday at 14:00 Colombo time.”
With Metta,
hojanYes, Yeos. It is part of the dukkha.
Until the brain of a baby develops, a baby cannot express itself fully.
– The full development of the brain takes seven years (also according modern science). That is why the minimum age to be an Arahant is seven years.It is really miccha ditthi because it is an asobhana cetasika.
Yes. It is there because one is unaware of the real nature (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
– That is why Samma Ditthi is the first step in the Noble Eightfold Path.Lang’s questions:
“So another way we can say anything about Nibbana is asankata dhatu. Short of parinibbana, is this what is “experienced” by someone in Nirodha samapatti?”Yes. Nirodha samapatti means “without any citta”. Nothing about this “world” is experienced.
“And this asankata dhatu must be “one of a kind”. All other dhatu, the kind made out of the maha bhuta, are “sankata”, correct?”
Yes. Everything in ‘this world” is included in the six dhatu of pathavī dhātu, āpo dhātu, tejo dhātu, vāyo dhātu, ākāsa dhātu, viññāṇa dhātu.
– asankata dhatu is devoid of any of that.“So an Arahant will create neither a set of pasada rupa (and therefore no pancakkhandha) nor a hadaya vatthu.”
This should be stated as: “An Arahant will not create a hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa for a FUTURE EXISTENCE.”
– That is why an Arahant is NOT reborn ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
– Any rebirth is associated with a hadaya vatthu (and a set of pasada rupa, other than for an arupavacara Brahma).The pancakkhandha of that lifestream WILL REMAIN in this world (in the “nama loka.”)
– But that is just a record of all activities of that lifestream UPTO the moment of Parinibbana.
– Nothing will be added to that RECORD after the Parinibbana since there is no living-being generating citta.
– All records of previous Buddhas, Arahants remain. That is how Buddha Gotama was able to provide account about previous Buddhas, by looking at their records in the “nama loka.I suggest re-reading several recent posts on the Five Aggregates, and the post on Nibbana referred to below.
I think your other questions are related to that.
– An Arahant lives life just like us UNTIL Parinibbana.
– An Arahant is IN this world UNTIL Parinibbana (full Nibbana). That lifestream DOES NOT EXIST in this world after Prinibbana. It is in the asankata dhatu (full Nibbaba) AFTER the death of the physical body.
– See, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World.”P.S.
Y not wrote: “Surely, all those Arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Buddhas realized that Nibbana, having had a glimpse of it, is not only the ending of suffering (i.e.conductive to a ‘neutral’ state, to freedom from suffering), but a positive and unsurpassable state of Absolute and Ultimate Bliss.”“Nibbanic bliss” (after Parinibbana) is NOT a vedana (feelings). Anything that is in “this world of 31 realms” including vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana, and rupa (material forms) are NOT in Nibbana.
– The bliss is to stop ANY and ALL future suffering.
– It is critical to read and understand the post on Nibbana above.That was not correct.
I have revised that as: “alobha (absence of greed); adosa (absence of hate/anger, of which mettā or “loving-kindness” is a part); tatramajjhattatā (neutrality of mind, of which upekkhā is a part);.”
I made a few more corrections to that old post.
Thank you, Tobias!
Domanassa vedana could arise when someone is depressed by a kayika vedana (due to avijja). Of course, the kayika vedana is a kamma vipaka.
– By the way, karma is a Sanskrit word. We should try to use Pali words like kamma and Nibbana (instead of nirvana). I know that we are so used to using these Sanskrit words.Another way to look at this is that ALL factors of akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada are eliminated at the Arahant stage.
– However, those are just the factors in the “niddesa” version above.
– For example, “smphassa-ja-vedana” will not arise in Arahant. But kayika vedana (sukha or dukkha) will arise until Parinibbana (death of the Arahant).Your friend should start learning Dhamma. That is the way to reduce avijja and gradually reduce smphassa-ja-vedana.
Hello Usitha,
Welcome to the forum! Glad to hear about your progress.
Yes. Any current suffering via the body is due to past kamma. We need to bear any such suffering with upekkha. Of course, one MUST engage in all possible remedies like medical help, good exercise, healthy foods, etc.
As you said, it is smphassa-ja-vedana or the vedana that we create in our minds that lead to FUTURE suffering.
– Yes. We create them because of the ignorance (or absence of full clarity) of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.Yes. All mental dukkha vedana (domanassa vedana) are mind-made or smphassa-ja-vedana.
By the way, the steps in the Paticca Samuppada need to be understood in this wider context.
The “uddesa” version is: ““avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna; viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā phassō, phassa paccayā vēdanā, vēdanā paccayā taṇhā, taṇhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”
In the “niddesa” or “expanded” version: ““avijjā paccayā abhisaṅkhāra; abhisaṅkhāra paccayā kamma viññāna; kamma viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā samphassō, samphassa paccayā smphassa-ja-vēdanā, smphassa-ja-vēdanā paccayā taṇhā, taṇhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”
“Uddesa” and “niddesa” levels of explanations are important in sutta interpretations too: “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Structure“
