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That is right.
The statement that you quoted, “This means one is essentially an Anāgami by the time one is fully absorbed in the first Ariya jhāna”, is correct.
But there can be Anagamis who are not able to get into any jhana. Of course, they can spend time and cultivate jhana.
All three questions presume that jhanas are necessary to attain magga phala. That is not correct.
1. First, jhana are two types: Ariya and anariya.
2. One can attain magga phala (Anagami, Arahant, etc.) without attaining any type of jhana.
– The ability to get into jhana comes with practicing to get to jhana.
– It also depends on whether one had cultivated jhana in recent previous lives.Therefore, some Anagamis may never get into a jhana. Even an Anagami who has cultivated jhana, will not be in jhana all the time.
– Losing kama raga is different from getting into a jhana.
– An Anagami would not have kama raga whether in a jhana or not.All other questions need to be analyzed the same way.
See the first few posts in:
“Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”Thank you, Aniduan.
I saw the following being referred to as a good resource for a beginner. I am not sure how good it is:
It will play the whole series sequentially. You can also select different lessons by using the hamburger selector on the top.
It turned out that the English transcriptions for both videos need substantial revision. Please see my revised comments above.
– However, I must thank both the person who had done the original transcription and also Lair for their efforts. I can appreciate how much time each of them would have spent. Much merits to them and their families!
– Yet, the goal of all of us is to make the teachings of the Buddha available to others to the best of our ability. I should have checked the document before posting it. It was my fault for not doing that.What Pali phrase means “the fathom long body”?
– In the incorrect translation that you cited, they translated “byāmamatte kaḷevare” as “the fathom long body”.
– There is no easy, direct translation for that. The meaning is in my translation above.
Thank you, Lang, for bringing up this important sutta with a deep meaning.
First, the background of the sutta. A fairly good translation that provides the background is, “With Rohitassa (AN 4.45)”
A Deva named Rohitassa comes to the Buddha and asks, “Is it possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling to a place where there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn?”
– The Buddha says it is impossible to PHYSICALLY get to the end of the world (universe, in modern-day terminology).
– Rohitassa Deva said that he confirmed that by himself. He said that in a previous life, he was a yogi with supernormal powers who could travel vast distances (with his gandhabba body). One day he took off to try to get to the “end of the world”. Of course, no matter how much he traveled, there was no “end”. He died on the way.To get in idea of how vast the universe is, see the following video: “Carl Sagan “100 Billion Galaxies each W/100 Billion Stars”
Then the Buddha says:
“Na kho panāhaṃ, āvuso, appatvā lokassa antaṃ dukkhassa antakiriyaṃ vadāmi. Api ca khvāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañcapaññapemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodha-gāminiñca paṭipadanti.”The translation of that verse is better from Lang’s quote (EXCEPT for the part that I highlighted):
“Friend, I do not say that all suffering will cease without reaching the end of the world, but I say that the world lies within this fathom long body, which possesses mind and perception. I also teach the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.”A better translation would be (just the meaning): “Friend, I do say that all suffering will not cease without reaching the end of the world. But “reaching the end of the world” is possible without going anywhere. It can be done with this body that possesses mind and perception. One just needs to comprehend the mechanism that “bears this world”. I also teach the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.”
Let us discuss briefly what the Buddha meant by that verse.
To see the context, let us look at Rohitassa’s first question stated above: “Is it possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling to a place where there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn?”
So, the Buddha is saying that getting to a place where there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn is possible by following the Noble Eightfold Path. That goal is attained upon the Parinibbana of an Arahant. There will be no more births in this world.
– That is the “end of the world”, the death of an Arahant. He/she will not be reborn anywhere in this world of 31 realms. That is reaching the “end of the world.”One comprehends the suffering associated with the rebirth process by comprehending the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.
– The rebirth process continues with the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. That means one will be tempted to do immoral deeds via abhisankhara. Here “avijja” is not to realize the anicca nature, i.e., that remaining in this world (i.e. in the rebirth process) will only lead to much suffering.
– That process always ends up with “bhava paccaya jati” and “jati paccaya jars, Marina, soka, parideva,…(or the “whole mass of suffering)”When one gets to the Arahant stage, the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process stops and the Arahant WOULD NOT grasp a new bhava at death. That is the “end of the world.” That is the end of all suffering!
The following post is from Lang (cubibobi):
Hi,
The “revival” of this thread prompted me to ask another question. Could somebody please explain the following section from the Rohitassa Sutta:
“Na kho panāhaṃ, āvuso, appatvā lokassa antaṃ dukkhassa antakiriyaṃ vadāmi. Api ca khvāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañcapaññapemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodha-gāminiñca paṭipadanti.”
One translation of it is:
“Friend, I do not say that all suffering will cease without reaching the end of the world, but I say that the world lies within this fathom long body, which possesses mind and perception. I also teach the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.”
The above Pali verse and translation are from a book about Mahasi Sayadaw’s vipassana method.
On the Nature of Nibbana
page 67 (of the book)Below is the context of my question.
I practiced Goenka’s technique for quite some time, and gave a description of a 10-day course earlier in this thread. In brief, the technique takes bodily vedanā as the object of meditation (kammatthāna). The practitioner scans attention from head to toes and note the vedanā that arise and pass away. Seeing this arising and passing of vedanā is seeing the annica nature of vedanā.
They say that the technique has basis in the Satipatthana Sutta but focuses narrowly on just vedanā out of the four: kaya, vedanā, sankharā, dhammā. This is because to observe vedanā is to observe all. The main rationale for this is 2-fold, based on other places outside the Satipatthana Sutta:
(1) The verse “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”. They translated this as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.” Lal already addressed this earlier in the thread, about the real meaning of the verse.
(2) The above verse in the Rohitassa Sutta and they translated it pretty much as above.
Does this Pali section really mean as the translation? This section is actually used quite often in the traditions of body-based meditation techniques, the part about the “fathom-long body”. I don’t know Pali, but as I scan the Pali section I do not see the word “kaya” (body).
Thank you so much. This point was actually much on my mind before and now got the surface again.
Hello, firewns,
You wrote: “Asobhana cetasikas may also condition maha kusala cittas, maha vipaka cittas and maha kiriya cittas. Yet this point is not stressed in your writing, and due to the way it is worded, unwary people may think that asobhana cetasikas always condition akusala cittas, which is not true.”
I think you have got it wrong. Asobhana cetasika (bad mental factors) arise ONLY in akusala citta.
Next you wrote, “This is because asobhana cetasikas include all cetasikas that are not sobhana, including the annasamana cetasikas (7 sabbacitta-sadharana and 6 pakinnaka), as well as 14 akusala cetasikas such as lobha and dosa.”
I have highlighted the root problem in your statement. Asobhana cetasika arise ONLY in akusala citta.
Let me clarify the basics:
1. There are 7 cetasika that are in each and every citta. These are called universals (sabba citta sādhārana)
2. There are six cetasika that also CAN appear in both types of cittā: kusala and akusala. However, they are found in only particular types of cittā. They are called particulars or pakinnaka.
3. There are 14 asobhana cetasika (non-beautiful mental factors) that appear only in akusala citta.
4. There are 25 sobhana cetasika (beautiful mental factors.) They appear only in kusala citta.
5. As a rule, sobhana and asobhana cetasika CANNOT appear together in a given citta.
I just revised the following post on cetasika to make these very clear:
“Cetasika (Mental Factors)”I also revised the post that you quoted to add some subsections to simplify:
“What Are Kilesa (Mental Impurities)? – Connection to Cetasika”What I stated above is in any standard Abhidhamma text. See, for example, Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”. See Chapter 2, “Compendium of Mental Factors”
I just came across a post on vipallasa. I had forgotten about it:
“Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Sankhāra“P.S. This post requires revision.
Thank you, Guided!
I think you stated there exactly what the root problem is with these types of meditations.
You wrote: “However, as far as the 10-day introductory course is concerned, there’s not much stress put on this kind anapanasati and instead, one should, I quote, “work with the body, not the mind,” therefore one should disregard ALL thoughts during the meditation itself and focus only on vedana, according to all the assistant teachers I met.”
It is the mind that needs to be purified.
– Our physical body will die within about 100 years.
– However, the “contents of the mind” will be carried to the next life, with its gati, asava, anusaya,, etc.Buddha taught that one should stop ONLY those thoughts that are defiled (immoral or sensual in nature). Those are akusala sankappa and kama sankappa.
– One needs to CULTIVATE moral and non-sensual thoughts. Those are kusala and nekkhamma sankappa.
– Here, “non-sensual” means thoughts that do not involve satisfying especially the taste, smell, and touch. Any thoughts about vision and sounds that are relevant to satisfying taste, smell, and touch need to be avoided too. Some examples are thoughts about food, sex, nice fragrances.In order to set the background, one first needs to realize the unfruitfulness and dangers in engaging in activities/speech/thoughts about sensory pleasures. That is to learn and comprehend Tilakkhana or the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world.
June 13, 2020: I had posted the English translation of a long discourse by Waharaka Thero here. I just removed it since it needs some revision. I will post the revised version when ready.
Lvalio (Lair) has transcribed the first video that Christian posted. Lair emailed it to me since he cannot post the long document. I have converted his Word document to a pdf and the link is given below.
– Since it is the second video in the series it is labeled as #2.Much merits to Lair for taking the time to go through the laborious process!
June 13, 2020: Lair sent me the Word document of the English translation of the second video. I went through it and found that it needs to be revised.
– Then I went through the document for the other video that was posted here. It also needs to be revised.
– Therefore, I deleted the document that was posted here.
– I hope to go through both documents and posts them here. It may take several days.Greetings!
Thank you for providing a detailed account of your meditation experience.1. As I have explained above, and in many posts, there is no question that breath meditation can help one to get to different types of samadhi and even jhana.
– However, breath meditation is not Anapanasati meditation taught by the Buddha. And any kind of jhana attained provides only temporary relief. That means it will not help reduce one’s hidden defilements (anusaya).
– The correct Anapanasati meditation will permanently reduce anusaya in steps. For example, the tendency to get angry can be PERMANENTLY reduced by the correct Anapanasati mediation.2. Any type of meditation can calm the mind by focusing one’s attention on a single object. That can be one’s breath, a ball of clay (used in anariya kasina meditation), a statue of a religious figure (Buddha, Jesus Christ, etc.)
– That calming effect comes by not letting the mind wander around as it usually does.
– That “calming of the mind” can manifest as a lightness of the body, seeing various colors, lights, etc.
– Now, let me try to explain a fundamental issue that I may not have discussed in my previous comments on this thread.3. One’s tendency to get angry WILL NOT reduce significantly (that is the example we took above) with those meditation techniques. It may seem that anger has subsided, especially if one regularly practices those meditation techniques.
– However, if one goes for an extended time without engaging in regular meditation sessions, one will see that the tendency to get angry will be back.
– That means those meditation techniques WILL NOT help reduce anusaya (hidden defilements).Anusaya is a concept that is hard to understand for many people. It is closely related to one gati (pronounced gathi), which means one’s character/habits. The following posts may be helpful in understanding gati and anusaya (and asava, another related term).
“The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Āsava)”
Yes. Christian.
There are three types of distortions (vipallasa) that arise due to taking the world to be of “nicca, sukha, atta” nature, instead of anicca, dukkha, anatta (real nature).
– There are three levels of comprehension. Roughly speaking, one removes the wrong views (ditthi vipallasa) about them at the Sotapanna stage. Then sanna vipallasa removed at the Anagami stage and citta vipallasa removed at the Arahant stage.A Sotapanna or a Sakadagami has NOT removed the sanna for sensory pleasures (that is why they are reborn in kama loka). In other words, he/she may UNDERSTAND that those are not worth pursuing. But they just cannot help enjoying sensory pleasures. That means they have not removed the “SANNA vipallasa”. That means “confusion on PERCEPTIONS about wrong/unfruitful activities”.
I will get to discuss vipallasa in upcoming posts in the pancakkhandha section.
You have made great progress. Sadhu! Sadhu!! Sadhu!!!
You are right. Asmi mana goes away only at the Arahant stage.
– However, asmi mana will also decrease gradually as you make progress. It is not a sudden drop.For example, a Sotapanna Anugami starts losing all ten samyojana gradually as he/she makes progress.
– Then the first three samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa) will cease in one thought-moment. That is when one attains the Sotapanna stage.
– However, by that time the other 7 samyojana would have decreased in varying degrees too.
– Then kama raga and patigha will cease to exist at the Anagami phala moment. By that time, the other five samyojana would have decreased in varying degrees.But it is asmi mana that is usually eliminated last together with avijja. There are some who have eliminated rupa raga and arupa raga but have the other three (mana, uddacca, avijja) remaining to some degree. Those there are the last to go away at the Arahant stage.
So, I would not worry too much about asmi mana. Hopefully, you will see it reduce too gradually.
By the way, one loses asmi mana when one fully realizes the anatta nature.
– The first step is to “see” the anicca nature.
– The current series of posts on the Five Aggregates discuss these in a systematic way:
“The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)“Don’t worry about it, y not. I understand.
There is no need to contribute to maintaining the puredhamma.net site.
– But the thought is what counts and may you all accrue many merits for them.As for converting Waharaka Desana, I personally do not have time for it.
– But as I have mentioned many times, that is in effect what I do. Of course, I complement what I learned from Waharaka Thero with my science background.
– In the latter, sometimes science helps make the presentation stronger, and other times Buddha Dhamma can point out flaws in some scientific theories.
