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The following post is from Aniduan:
I listened to portions of this meditation by Amadassana Thero (from
Dharmayai Obai Sermons): “2020-04-26 DOSE (Breathing Meditation)“.He is teaching breath meditation. Based on what I read on this puredhamma website Buddha did not teach breath meditation. Waharaka Thero was Buddha’s lineage and if Amadassana Thero was Waharaka Thero’s student I wonder why he is teaching breath meditation.
Hello Lang,
Those four things mentioned in the “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)” are “imponderables.’
They CANNOT BE grasped FULLY by anyone but a Buddha.
– That means we can understand them to some extent, but not in full detail. So, the Buddha said not to try to understand them in great detail, for one could spend one’s whole life and not be satisfied.
– Furthermore, that would take time away from pursuing the most important objective of attaining Nibbana.Regarding jhana: Just like the other three subjects, one will never be able to learn everything about jhana, including iddhi powers that can be cultivated.
– For example, Ven. Moggallana was only second to the Buddha in iddhi powers. But once he decided to “explore” the vast universe and got lost. Buddha had to come to his “rescue.”You are correct, oetb!
I just revised #6 on that old post as follows:
“6. The Buddha said, “..bhikkhus, sentient beings reborn as humans are few as this bit of sand on my fingernail. But those not reborn as humans are many as the sand on this great Earth. Therefore, you should strive diligently and without delay to end this suffering in the rebirth process”. That statement appears to most people as an exaggeration. That quote is from the post, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm”.”Regarding the second part of your above comment:
Yes. It is extremely difficult to “come back up” once born in an apaya.
As for humans, the problem is the following. Many people engage in good deeds. However, it is very easy for a human (one who has not grasped the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature) to be TEMPTED by sense desires.
– By the way, the fraction of HUMANS getting a rebirth in a good realm (after the human bhava, which may last thousands of years as Lvalio pointed out above), is higher than what the Buddha quoted in the above sutta.
– Those in the apayas are MUCH MORE numerous than the human population. There are more living beings (belonging to the animal realm) in your backyard soil than the entire human population on Earth! That is why the “sand on a fingernail” analogy applies to ALL living beings.
– If we just take the humans who are reborn, they have better odds of being born human again. Still, it is quite low.The following post is from oetb.
Thanks!
I just wrote a reply, but I do not copy it before posting, and it has not been posted (I lost the reply). I’ll make a very brief resume.
The quote I made is the quote in point 6 of Wrong Views (Miccā Diṭṭhi) – A Simpler Analysis, and it seems to me that that quote tells that the very next bhava (those who depart from) of practically all human beings is one in the apayas. That is not exactly the same as saying that to grasp a human bhava is very rare.
As I had understood, beings in the apayas are “perpetuated” there because with the conditions they have is very easy to do akusala abhisankhara and very difficult to do puñña abhisankhara, so they are helpless, and for them, it is very very exceptional to grasp a human bhava after their actual bhava in the apayas. But I thought that humans are not so helpless. Humans have better conditions and more chances to do good deeds or cultivating merits. If the above quote is literally, then humans would be helpless and all good humans that try to live morally or to cultivate merits do it in vain (I am referring in the short term, i.e. in the very next bhava, not in the long term, where only Sotapannas and above are safe).
Hello oetb. Before I comment on your question, I would like to make a couple of suggestions.
1. It is a good idea to quote the source of what you are quoting, if possible.
2. Also, when you quote someone at the forum (this is regarding your other comment that I just saw on another thread), please say who (at that thread) said that, if there are several people who had commented.
Now, regarding your analysis, Let me clarify a few things first.
I had discussed the sutta in question, Nakhasikha Sutta (SN 20.2), in the post, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm”
To quote from that post: “In the same way, bhikkhus, sentient beings reborn as humans are few as this bit of sand on my fingernail. But those not reborn as humans are many as the sand on this great Earth. Therefore, you should strive diligently and without delay to end this suffering in the rebirth process”.
I have highlighted the fact that the Buddha said that, “of all living beings” that die the fraction born as a human would be similar to the fraction of grains of sand that can be picked up on a fingernail to that on the Earth.
I just Googled and found that an estimate for the grains of sand on Earth to be about 10^19.
There are roughly 10 billion (10^10) people on Earth.However, we need to take the number of all beings on Earth.
The article, “The Largest Study of Life Forms Ever Has Estimated That Earth Is Home to 1 TRILLION Species”
says there are over a trillion (10^12) species of living species on Earth.
– One of those species is ants. I did a Google search on just how many ants in this world and saw that an estimate was 10^15.
– That is just one species out of over a trillion species.
– Of course, there are fewer animals of larger species.
– But the number of microscopic living beings could be staggering.
– Here is a video on how many in a drop water contaminated water:
“How many living things are in a drop of dirty water?”Of course, what I discussed above includes just animal species on Earth.
There are 31 realms based on the Earth too. We simply do not know how many living-beings are in the other three realms of the papaya, or in the Deva/Brahma realms.It would be impossible for us to do such a calculation to get a meaningful number. But as always, the Buddha would know for sure. I personally don’t have any reason to doubt it.
The Buddha said there are four things that we should not waste our time on.
– They are: knowledge of a Buddha, jhana, working (finer details) of kamma, and details about the world.
See, “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)”
– a couple of English translations are available there.I am not discouraging looking into things with an open mind. But sometimes, we are not capable of finding answers to some questions. In particular, the Buddha advised against looking into those four.
Yes. You have to understand the context.
Of course, a Sotapanna CAN do an anantariya punna kamma (like cultivating jhana).
– The sutta must be referring to anantariya papa kamma.“abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo āNANTARIYAM KAMMAM KāTUM”
It means a diṭṭhisampanna person (meaning a Sotapanna) is incapable of doing an ānantariya kamma.
– That makes complete sense, because if an ānantariya kamma is done, one would be reborn in the apaya in the next birth.
– A Sotapanna will never be born in an apaya.The following post is from oetb, addressed to hoya.
Hi,
As said in the article, the intention is a key factor for kamma. Your intention was not a bad one, in fact, it was a good one. Then, I think you shouldn’t worry about it.
Hello oetb,
OK. I see that you have a fairly good idea about gandhabba.
Regarding: “Being joined with a dense body, I am not sure why (I’ll ask in another thread), the gandhabba has his capabilities inhibited, not being now able to see and hear at distance, and now depends on the physical body sense inputs and the brain.”
The following crude analogy may be helpful.
Suppose someone puts you in a small solid box (like an old phone booth) that is sound-proof and has no windows.
– You will not be able to see and hear (This analogy does not work for smell, taste, and touch).Gandhabba inside a physical solid body is like that. It cannot see and hear without such inputs coming through a window in that solid box.
BUt the gandhabba inside the physical body also needs the help of the brain to process those two visual and sound inputs. That cannot be put in that analogy.
– So, even if the physical body has perfectly good eyes and ears if the brain cannot process those signals, the gandhabba still will not be able to see or hear.We can take this to another level now. Inside the box, you will be able to think.
– But the gandhabba cannot even think without the help of another “window” to the outside. That is called ‘mana indriya.” Our memories are in the “nama plane” and need to come into the physical body through that mana indriya in the brain, just like a visual need to come in through the eyes.Furthermore, those memories coming through the mana indriya must be first processed by the brain, just the signal from the eyes must be processed.
– I discussed the latter process briefly in the new post, “Arising of Five Aggregates Based on an Ārammaṇa” I have discussed that in a couple of prior posts too, but I do not remember which ones.– Anyway, I will be discussing that more in upcoming posts on this new series of posts.
The bottom line is that if the brain does not function well, then the gandhabba becomes totally helpless inside that body, not being able to even THINK.
– That is why a “brain-dead” person is totally inert.
– P.S. But if the gandhabba can somehow come out of that body, he/she will be able to see, hear, and think perfectly.So, I hope you can see that the gandhabba is the same whether staying inside or outside the body. His capabilities may be limited by the level of brain function (and also the functioning of the eyes, ears, tongue, etc).
You know that SOME little children can remember their previous life (just one, in most cases.)
– That ability is lost when the child grows up because the brain will too many things to do as one grows up. Too many attractive things to “process.” These are also called pancanivarana.
– So, the gandhabba outside the physical body MAY BE able to recall a bit more, but I am not sure.
– Anyway, there in no need to “push” these things to their limits. We just need to get a basic idea about the sensory experience. That will help us realize that ULTIMATELY there is no “me” and all these things that we do to “enjoy life’ will keep us trapped in this suffering-filled rebirth process. But we need to get there step-by-step. It is foolish to start off saying that “there is no “self”.Also, see, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“
You wrote: “I’m referring more specifically when a gandhabba dwells in para loka. I mean, lots OBE reports talk about people that could see and hear from out of the body while maintaining its identity, i.e., knowing who they are, who are its relatives, etc..”
I don’t think you understood what I was trying to say. Let me try to say it in a different way.
– There is a gandhabba inside of you. In fact, that gandhabba is YOU.
– Our physical body is just a “shell.”
– It is the gandhabba doing the thinking etc.So, what happens to some who undergo heart operations is that the gandhabba is kind of “pushed out” of the physical body. When the gandhabba comes out, it can see and hear without having eyes and ears.
If you really want to understand, you need to spend some time and read the posts I recommended.
Please feel to ask questions if you have a problem with certain parts of a post. That is why the bullet numbers are there. Please refer to the post and the bullet numbers.
That applies to your other questions too.
P.S. The gandhabba does not die until the lifetime for the human bhava is spent.
– If the human bhava in your example is 1000 years, it is the same gandhabba that lives 1000 years. But his gati may change, of course.
– When one physical body dies, the gandhabba just separates from the dead body (just like what happens to some people during heart operations). Then the gandhabba waits until it is pulled into a another womb. Then it lives inside that physical body, and so on.The gandhabba may not remember previous lives in different physical bodies.
Hello oetb.
“Is a gandhabba able to recall memories?”
– Yes. Gandhabba is simply our mental body. It is inside the physical body. The physical body (or the brain) cannot think.
– Thus when we say we recall our memories, it is actually our gandhabba that is recalling memories.The best way to realize this is to look at the out-of-body experiences (OBE) of people who have had that experience during heart operations. During some heart operations, the mental boy or the gandhabba comes out of the physical body. That mental body can see its physical body from the above. The book “Consciousness Beyond Life” by Pim van Lommel (2010) gives detailed accounts of case studies of OBE experienced by people undergoing heart operations.
– Also see, “Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body” , “Mental Body Versus the Physical Body” and “Mental Body (Gandhabba) – Personal AccountsRegarding your other questions, also see, “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“
Lucas wrote: “I’m saying that there is an incongruence in the translation of your post, your matching with actual scientific theories, and the law of kamma.”
What is not matching is only the Big Bang theory. My post is consistent with the laws of kamma, but may not be matching with laws of kamma as you interpret.
You wrote: ‘This is important: the tipitaka is not our bible. It’s just a text that has to be taken as such.” and “It’s just a text that has to be taken as such. It has to be tested by personal experience.”
– Tipitaka is not the bible. It is the Tipitaka and it is the Buddha’s word. Think about self-consistency. You are just repeating what many secular Buddhists say. Again, please provide evidence of inconsistencies, rather than making statements.
-The Tipitaka cannot be verified by the experience of those who have not comprehended its core teachings.You wrote: “In the lineage that I practice (Goenka)”
– That explains a lot.You wrote: ‘if there is more planets that host lifeforms, more galaxies, more “clusters”, more whatever names we wanna place for a physical realm… why should a being go up with the destruction of his cluster when there are innumerable more places around the universe in which the tendencies can take place? Please answer this.”
– This is a key point. It is not correct to say, “a being go(es) up”
– When the destruction starts, the “mind-pleasing things” start disappearing. So, over time that leads to the cultivation of jhana. This is similar to those who cultivate anariya jhana by willfully staying away from “mind-pleasing things.” I will explain this in detail in the upcoming post. But essentially, living-beings NATURALLY go up the realms as their realms are slowly destroyed.You wrote: “Furthermore, if beings go up with the destruction of the material realms, the inexistence of this last ones will have to be a requisite. The only possible instance in which this event could happen is in the absolute contraction of the whole Universe when there is no physical realm available anywhere.”
The higher-lying Brahma realms are not destroyed when the solid Earth is destroyed. There is very little “matter” in those realms. All living-beings end up in those realms.
– Please note that the lifetimes of beings in the highest realms are many eons (many Maha kappa).
– However, those living-beings who “migrate up naturally” in the destruction phase, only go up to the Abhassara Brahma realm. Their lifetimes end by the time the Earth is “re-formed.”You may want to read my post on Agganna Sutta carefully and also the links provided there. Buddha Dhamma is very deep. It is not possible to explain something in a single post or even several posts.
I do not mean to offend you or anyone with some of the statements above. But that is the truth. There is no other way to explain/make sense of things.
– Please remember that Einstein believed the universe to be stable. He tried to “fudge” his equations to force the universe to be static. See the first two paragraphs in, “Cosmological constant”
– If Einstein could not go against the Buddha’s teachings, it is doubtful that anyone else can.Let me ask a couple of questions, Lucas.
1. Have you read the Agganna Sutta? What I described is not a theory of mine, but the way it is described in that sutta.
2. You wrote: “If we follow this logically and not purely and solely based on a 2300 years text (that we are not 100% sure if is authentic and not modified)..”
– How confident are you about your theory?
– Also, have you found ANYTHING in the Pali Tipitaka to be inconsistent with ITSELF? If you have, please mention a couple of things so we can discuss them.I have full confidence in the Agganna Sutta and also in the whole of the Tipitaka. Just because the Tipitaka is 2500 years old, does not mean that it has errors. The only way to contest that is to show evidence that it is not self-consistent. See, “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency.”
– I have so far not been able to find ANYTHING inconsistent with the Tipitaka.
– Furthermore, the description in the Agganna Sutta is consistent with most of the scientific findings except for a few. A major exception is the Big Bang model. It will be proven to be wrong in the future in the same way that many other scientific findings (which were inconsistent with the Tipitaka) were turned out to be incorrect or incomplete.It seems that I missed the second part of Lucas’s question. That second part is:
“Not only this but even if we consider that the universe does not expand and contract and that the cluster is the only thing that is destroyed, there is still an incongruence in saying that beings will “forcibly” go to the Brahma realms when there are other clusters in the universe in which their kamma can rest and express itself. We know by the literature, and many of us by personal experience, that mind has no spacial limits.With all my respects, the logic that shows your post is against the law of kamma or the law of cause and effect. If there is any place in the whole universe in which beings have any possibilities to continue with their tendencies they will go there. Only if those places (realms) are not available, only then they will go up and up because of the dissolution of the lower realms.”
It seems to me that Lucas is saying the following:
When a cluster of 10,000 “world-systems” (in terms of modern language 10,000 star systems) get blown up, why do the living-beings in those world-systems not reborn somewhere else in the universe?
– Why do they living-beings in each inhabited planet in those world-systems end up in the higher-lying realms in their original systems?
– For example, when the Earth is destroyed, why not those living beings “stationed” in the Earth-based system not born elsewhere in the universe?I think I need to write another post instead of addressing that part of the question here. The answer involves many related issues. But let me point out a few key things.
– The destruction is not instantaneous. Furthermore, the “re-formation” process is not instantaneous as is the case with the “Big Bang,” in the sense that not ALL MATTER (or the ingredients for all matter) come into existence in a moment in the “Big Bang.”
– The destruction process happens over billions of years. The migration of living-beings to higher realms happens over such a long time, in NATURAL PROCESS.
– P.S. Long before a 10,000 “world-system” explodes in a supernova, life in associated planets will gradually die out over many millions of years. First, humans and animals will die. The higher-lying Deva realms will survive for a long time. Lower-lying Brahma realms will survive even longer.
– The re-formation of the solid Earth also happens over billions of years.If there are other related issues, I can try to address those too. But it will take several days, may be even a couple of weeks.
