[Lal]

Yes. Christian. You are right that one needs to understand Buddha Dhamma to really “see” the Buddha.

But looking into the background of the Buddha, before his Enlightenment, is important to many people.
– That is part of learning about Buddha Dhamma, especially for those who have not had much exposure to Buddha Dhamma.
– When I was growing up in Sri Lanka, we learned that background material in primary school.

I also came to realize the importance of this only recently. This also includes reading up on setting the “necessary background”: Moral living, giving to monks and poor, etc. I need to add more posts on that.

Another important aspect for some people who are practicing Buddhists is to follow some rituals like making offerings to the Buddha and recite the traditional recitals. Of course, one cannot get to Nibbana just by following rituals. But that may provide the necessary background to calm the mind and getting one ready for “formal meditation”, for example.
See, “Buddhist Chanting”
-In that respect, there are two types of people (with two major types of gati) who follow Buddha Dhamma. They are Dhammānusari and Saddhānusari.
– The first is more interested in the teachings.
– The second type of person needs the support of the “rituals” that I mentioned. Of course, they also will learn the teachings, but those “rituals” help them to set up the background.

[Lal]

There are two types of gati.
– One is connected to defilements. For example, the tendency to steal could become a gati. I have heard about a King who enjoyed stealing things from shops. He would visit shops as a “commoner” and steal things. The ministers were aware of that and, without the King knowing about it, followed him on such visits. They would pay off the shop owner without the King knowing about it. They did not want the King to be caught and get into trouble.
– The other type of gati is what you are describing. It is harmless and would have no kammic consequences. Such things are just innocent habits, and could even come from previous lives. For example, there is this story in the Tipitaka about a very young Arahant. He had the tendency to jump over things, even though it would be considered “unbecoming” for an Arahant. It turned out that he was born a monkey not too far back in his previous lives.

[Lal]

You are right. The details of Prince Siddhartha’s life before becoming an ascetic have a few variations among different accounts by historians.
– Those details are not important for cultivating the path.

However, some key features are in the Tipitaka and those can be assumed to be correct.
– Those include leaving for the ascetic life just after his son, Rahula, was born.

The Tipitaka accounts are in the links that I provided in my first reply above. They can be assumed to be correct because everything else in the Tipitaka is self-consistent and correct.

[Lal]

The following post is by Oetb:

The post I read that motivated me to start the thread was the following:
The
Buddha was not a “Hindu prince”

The links Lal replied states very clearly that the Buddha was a prince
and lived in palaces. What disturbs me a little bit is that the post of
the above link seems coherent in its arguments stating that the Buddha
was not a prince, but an aristocrat, and not lived in palaces, but
probably in wood mansions.

A quote from the post says this:

So far as we can tell, Gautama’s father Suddhodana was a Shakyan aristocrat, and some sources call him a ‘raja’. But despite the version of Gautama’s life made familiar in legendary accounts, this doesn’t mean that he was a king (they were called ‘Maharajas’). It is possible that
he was just one aristocrat among many, but according to some sources,
Suddhodana was the Shakyans’ chief raja. We know from descriptions of other gana communities that chieftains were elected in a meeting of representatives of aristocratic families at the assembly hall…

And after that quote, Bodhipaksa wrote this:

Excavations of the likely candidates for the Buddha’s home town don’t reveal any palaces, and in fact, the term the Buddha uses when he does describe his father’s houses as “palaces” is not the same as the term used for the dwelling of a “king” (maharaja). Probably the term
“mansion” would be more appropriate. So Suddhodana was more like a
“tribal chief” than what we would think of as a king, and Gautama a
“chief’s son” rather than a “prince.” The largest houses that have been excavated are of wooden construction, with people living above the animals’ accommodation. The archaeological evidence, in other words,
doesn’t point to anything very royal.

Of course, that no palaces had been found in excavations does not
necessarily imply that there were no palaces. But could it be, has the
above quote suggests, that the word the Buddha used to reference his
houses had been mistranslated as “palace”, or that what was known as
“palace” is not the same as what we actually know as “palace”?

[Lal]

Any dukkha experienced by a gandhabba is much less compared to the suffering in the four lower realms in the long run (in the rebirth process.)

[Lal]

Here is another account of the life of the Buddha I just came across. I just glanced through it. Since there are not many accounts in the English language, this could be helpful too:
“Life of the Buddha“

[Lal]

Hello Tobias!

Those four factors help in one’s efforts to attain Nibbana. They are due to past puñña kamma. I just added a reference to that post.

The FIVE factors sati, saddha, panna, samadhi, viriya are called Pañca Indriya. They are discussed at, “Pañca Indriya and Pañca Bala – Five Faculties and Five Powers.”

Pañca Indriya needs to be cultivated.
– Of course, those four factors āyu (age), vaṇṇa (lively), sukha (comfort), bala (ability) help cultivate the Pañca Indriya.

The Pali word for age is āyu. I had used the Sinhala word āyusa. I made that revision too.

[Lal]

Thanks, Tobias. I did not pay much attention to the numbers.

Even that does not fully convey the dangers of continuing in the rebirth process.

[Lal]

I had missed the comment by y not because he had posted while I was replying to the comment by cubibobi.

Y not wrote: “In life we see that we can enjoy the pleasant, but have to pay for that by experiencing the unpleasant as well. It is the two sides of a coin. You must accept the unpleasant in order to have the pleasant. Nibbana would here equate with rejecting both – throwing away the coin. Free of the unpleasant, yes, but at the price of giving up on the pleasant.”

Mostly correct. But samsaric suffering and any trace of happiness (even if in a Brahma realm for millions of years) cannot be equated as “two sides of a coin“. This is the point to contemplate on. That Brahma will come down to the human realm and will succumb to temptations and WILL BE born in an apaya at some point. Even a few days of suffering in some apayas will be unbearable.

There are many suttas in Samyutta Nikāya 56 that describe the dangers for living-beings trapped in the rebirth process. See, for example, suttas starting with “SN 56.35 A Hundred Spears”

Here is a brief summary of the sutta SN 56.35 in my words:
“Bhikkhus, suppose there is a man with a life span of a hundred years. Someone would say to him: “You will be guaranteed of getting to the Arahanthood if you agree to be pierced by a spear three times a day for the hundred years of your life.”
Bhikkhus, he should accept the offer. For what reason? Because this rebirth process is filled with unimaginable suffering.
Even though that may be so, bhikkhus, I do not say that path to the Arahanthood is filled with suffering or displeasure. Rather, the Noble Path is accompanied only by happiness and joy.
Bhikkhus, you need to understand: ‘This rebirth process is filled with unimaginable suffering. The Noble Path is the way leading to the cessation of all that suffering.’

Many people are misled by the term “Nibbanic bliss” thinking that it is a vedana to be FELT. As I have explained in the post on Nibbana in my earlier post, we CANNOT express what Nibbana is like (after the Parinibbana of an Arahant). Because NOTHING of this world (including feelings, perceptions, thoughts, etc) are in Nibbana.
– However, there are instances in the Tipitaka where new Arahants utter joyous verses expressing the “bliss.”
– That can be compared to what one feels when one had just gotten rid of a chronic headache that one had for the whole lifetime. Imagine the relief! That is not a “sukha vedana” but just the absence of a piercing dukkha vedana.
– But no one can express the status of an Arahant AFTER the death of his/her physical body.
– But that lifestream WILL NOT be subjected to even a trace of suffering FOREVER. That is all we can say.

[Lal]

Cubiboi wrote: “It sounds like the arahant has gone beyond attachment to mother (and I suppose father too), and that micca ditthi #7,8 of the ten types of micca ditthi no longer “apply” to an arahant.’

Yes. That is correct. We have to go in steps. One must first live a moral life respecting one’s parents.
– The Arahant stage is not even comprehensible to most of us.

You wrote: “I once heard a desana from a thero about going beyond attachment to parents and children. To paraphrase: “In samsara we have had countless parents, and have been parents to countless children, so why are the current pair of parents and the current children more special.”

I’m wonderding now if the thero was speaking from the vantage point of an arahant, that an arahant looks at all beings as their parents and children at some point.”

Yes. That is the perspective of an Arahant. But it is fine to see that point, as long as one does not stop taking care of one’s parents.
– Before we get to the Arahant stage, we need to “settle some of our debts” too. We must be grateful to our parents for giving us the opportunity to get a human body. There are numerous gandhabbas anxiously awaiting that opportunity.

The other point is that sensual pleasures come at a big price, and that is hard for us to see. I will try to explain that in the next post to some extent.

[Lal]

The above discussion may be unsettling for some because it may give the impression that “one would be annihilated” at Parinibbana.

The deeper point is that the perception of a “self” is an illusion. However, until one attains Arahanthood, it is not correct to say that there is “no-self.”
– That is why it is not a good idea to spend too much time contemplating this issue at the beginning.

One MUST follow the path in a step-by-step manner. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”

The Buddha never promised a “happiness” in the sense of a “kama assada” or “sensual pleasures.”
– In fact, he showed it is our tendency for upadana for sensual pleasures that keep us bound to the rebirth process (samsara.)

For an average human “happiness” is the ability to enjoy sensual pleasures.
– In Buddha Dhamma, “permanent happiness” means just stopping ALL future suffering.
– There is no “vedana” cetasika in Nibbana to “feel” happiness in the mundane sense.

It is not easy to comprehend this deeper truth. That is the message embedded in Tilakkhana. That it is unfruitful, and dangerous to stay in the rebirth process HOPING for sensual pleasures.
– Those sensual pleasures come at a big prize. One would be subjected to MUCH MORE suffering than any pleasures enjoyed on a temporary basis.

The following video gives the idea of that predicament. The monkey WOULD NOT let go of the grains in the hand even though it is quite clear that it will be captured if it would not. The hunter could have killed the monkey if it wanted.
“How to Catch a monkey”

We also WILL become helpless if we do not gradually lose our upadana for sensual pleasures. But that loss of cravings comes ONLY with the comprehension of the “real nature” or the yathabhuta nana.
– See, “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering”

P.S. When one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, one will “SEE” the truth of what I described above. That it is unfruitful and DANGEROUS to consider “there is a “self” or “me” in the ultimate sense.
– However, the DESIRE for sensual pleasures goes away only at the Anagami stage.
– Therefore, it is critical to see the difference between “seeing the true nature” and actually abandoning the fruitless process of “pursuing sensual pleasures.”
– The PERCEPTION of a “self” or “me” goes away only at the Arahant stage. One needs to get there step-by-step.

[Lal]

Yes. There are many suttas in the Tipitaka.

There is a book that has taken parts from the Tipitaka and provides a lot so information. See,
“The Life of the Buddha” by Bhikkhu Nānamoli”

The following essay also provides a good summary:
“A Sketch of the Buddha’s Life – Readings from the Pali Canon”

For each sutta, more than one English translation can be found at Sutta Central, for some suttas. For example, MN 36 is one of the suttas mentioned and here is the link for that:
“The Longer Discourse With Saccaka (MN 36)”

Each sutta mentioned in the summary has only part of his life before giving up life as a “householder.”

[Lal]

Regarding Lang’s questions above:

Yes. There is a difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “nirōdha samāpatti“.
– In “Arahant phala samāpatti” citta can flow, but they are TOTALLY uncontaminated. Thoughts are in the first stage of the nine-stage evolution of “citta, manō, mānasan, hadayaṃ, pandaran, manō manāyatanam, mana indriyam (or manindriyam), viññāna, viññānakkhandha“.
See, “Amazingly Fast Time Evolution of a Thought (Citta)”
– On the other hand “nirōdha samāpatti” is like what happens AFTER Parinibbana. Absolutely no citta.

To complete the story, a living Arahant’s citta gets to the third stage of citta evolution, the “mānasan” stage. That is why a living Arahant can RECOGNIZE a person as mother, father, a beautiful woman, etc.
– But since it does not get to the “hadayaṃ” stage, the Arahant would have no special attention for mother or ANY attraction to a beautiful woman versus an ugly woman.
– So, the citta of a living Arahant does not even get to the “hadayaṃ” stage let alone to the viññāna stage.
– An Arahant in Arahant phala samāpatti is just AWARE that he/she is alive. He/she will not even experience ANY external arammana. He/she will not see, hear, anything. There is a sutta that describes the following situation. The Buddha was in Arahant phala samāpatti once, and lightning struck and killed a couple of people closeby. A large crowd of people came to see that and the Buddha was not aware of it until he came out of Arahant phala samāpatti.
– I recommend reading the post referred above.

The NON-REVERSIBLE cooling down (“niveema”) happens in stages. First is at the “Sotapanna Anugami” stage when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana. Then it is completed at the Arahant stage.
– Of course, there is “cooling down” or ‘niramisa sukha” even before the “Sotapanna Anugami” stage, but that is reversible. If one, later on, starts moving away from the path (mostly due to external influences), then it may be lost.

Yes. Nirōdha samāpatti is the closest to the state of an Arahant after Parinibbāna. No flow of cittā.

[Lal]

The following post is from cubiboi (Lang):

Hi,

I have some follow-up questions/thoughts from the thread in

Post on “Memory Records-critical part of five aggregates”

… but I thought it would be more relevant here.

In the other thread, the words asankata dhātu caught my attention since they made nibbana a little more “concrete”. I went back to this thread to review, and I also reread this post:

Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti

I then couldn’t resist churning those abstract concepts in my mind and wished to have them clarified.

Under #16 in Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti

… we have:

“Arahant phala samāpatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cētasika, where the saññā cētasika is not contaminated. Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that).”

So the asankata dhātu makes contact with the phassa cētasika in the pabhassara citta, and thus here is the “interface” between “this world” and Nibbānā.

Can we also say that the asankata dhātu is “everywhere”, and when the citta is purified to the pabhassara stage then it is “seen”?

Proceeding to nirōdha samāpatti, even the phassa cētasika (plus the other 6 universals) also drop, and it’s almost “all” asankata dhātu (plus the jivitindriya rūpa). Then at parinibbana, it’s “total” asankata dhātu. The path to parinibbāna is one of dropping cētasikā (from asobhana to sobhana to the universals) and all rūpa. Looked at in this way, the asankata dhātu is then the only “real thing” (the only thing “left standing”) at the end of it all.

Also under #16:
“When an Arahant is not in nirōdha samāpatti or Arahant phala samāpatti, his/her citta get only to the “manō” state, in the sequence that normally ends up in the viññānkkhandha state for a normal human”

This means that the ordinary experience of an arahant is NOT viññānkkhandha like the rest of us, since viññānkkhandha is already defiled. If we were to make up a word to describe an arahant’s daily experience, perhaps it could be “manōcittākkhanda”?

Going “down” to the other magga phala stages. I often hear descriptions such as “One becomes a Sōtapanna at the first glimpse/taste/realization of Nibbāna. And the experience of Nibbāna gets “deeper” at subsequent stages.”

Here, the “experience of Nibbāna” has to be the cooling down (“niveema”) that Lal told us numerous times. It can’t be the contact with the asankata dhātu since the citta of a Sōtapanna, Sakadagami, and Anāgami is not the pabhassara citta.

Again, just some thoughts I couldn’t help after seeing the words asankata dhātu. I appreciate any clarification or feedback of anything erroneous.

Best,
Lang

P.S. Finally, I now realize that all description of Nibbāna I read elsewhere has been nirōdha samāpatti (without the author using these words). Nibbāna was an either/or thing, and it sounded so “unattainable”. Here, learning about the different levels of “cooling down” gives one more hope that the Sōtapanna stage is attainable.

[Lal]

The following is from Hojan in reply to the request by Aniduan above.

Here’s live streaming from “Dharmayai Obai Jethavanarama Viharaya”

“Streamed LIVE from Jethavarama Viharaya Monastery, Ingiriya, Sri Lanka. To join future sermons live tune in to our LIVE YouTube stream every Sunday at 14:00 Colombo time.”

With Metta,
hojan

[Author]

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