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Yes. The central theme is correct.
- We can also think of it as follows, starting with an arammana (sensory input): We attach ( with tanha) to the arammana , expecting it to provide more happiness. That attachment culminates in upadana (pulling it close our mind with stronger attachment or “tanha paccaya upadana“), and we generate abhisankhara (kammic energy) by acting with avijja (“avijja paccaya sankhara.”)
- That kammic energy brings future rebirths.
- That is how the whole process goes on and on forever.
2(b) above in not correct.
- Engaging in punna kamma is essential to make the possibility of future rebirths in “good realms” and to avoid rebirths in apayas. See, for example, “Sumana Sutta (AN 5.31).”
- Also see #6 of “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra.”
- However, one must realize that engaging in punna kamma, by itself, is not enough to stop future suffering. One must convert punna kamma to kusala kamma by comprehending 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana.
Yes. I agree that taryal’s comments were reasonable from his perspective. Anyone without exposure to Buddha’s teachings would not know differently.
- But I have gone through many discussions like this where people kept bringing up point after point based on the “wrong assumptions” about the fundamental nature of this world (mostly scientists tend to do that; I have given up such discussions with a few of my dear friends.) If I did not “get to the point” such discussions can take a lot of time, and that is a waste of time. If someone is unwilling to look at the “previously unheard axioms” about this world (for example, Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong), then there is no point in further discussions. One should be open to that idea and then go through the explanations BASED ON THEM to see whether they lead to logical conclusions. That takes a lot of time and patience.
- P.S. The “Origin of Life” section is an introduction to that subject. It discusses why the assumptions of Darwin’s theory of evolution do not make sense in the broader worldview that takes into account the rebirth process and the existence of other realms that we cannot directly see. By the way, the Buddha personally visited all those realms, so this is not a mere philosophical theory. Anyone who can cultivate abhinna powers can do that.
- P.P.S. There are other sections on the website on this subject. For example, see “Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach” and “Dhamma and Science.”
- I hope Taryal will read the posts I recommended. I would be more than happy to clear up any questions he (or anyone else) may have regarding any of those posts. Please refer to any post and ask questions.
gopinadh: Not quite.
- A puñña kamma is a meritorious/good action that CAN lead to rebirth in the higher realms. See “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra”
- Engaging in kusala kamma leads to Nibbāna.
- The difference is understanding the fruitlessness/dangers of remaining in the rebirth process, i.e., getting rid of sakkaya ditthi.
- In the same way, there is a difference between mundane metta, karuna, muduta, upekkha (bhavana), and the Noble versions of them after getting rid of sakkaya ditthi.
See “Kilesa – Relationship to Akusala, Kusala, and Puñña Kamma.”
Tobias: “What means “landing” in relation to kama dhatu, kama sanna, kama sankappa…? I guess it is the purana kamma stage.”
- That is correct.
Tobias: “But how can the Bodhisatta avoid kama dhatu (with kama sanna)? “
- He could not/did not avoid it. As we discussed, even the Buddha or an Arahant also experiences the kama sanna (e.g., sweetness of sugar). Anyone born with a human body would automatically get the kama sanna because it comes with the “uppatti bhavanga.”
- So, they all go through the kama dhatu and kama sanna stages, but NOT to the kama sankappa stage.
- The Buddha or an Arahant would still be in the kama dhatu but NOT in kama bhava. The Bodhisatta was in kama bhava, but he overcame it during the Enlightenment.
- That is explained in “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind“. After that, we discussed purana kamma and nava kamma. See the sequence of posts in “Is There a “Self”?” Then we moved to the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” section.
- Maybe I should list all those in the new “Buddha Dhamma – Advanced” section so that we have the whole sequence of posts in one place.
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1. Here is another translation with the Pali: “Oghataraṇa Sutta (SN 1.1).”
- This short sutta has deep meanings regarding how a puthujjana is kept away from Nibbana. In many suttas, attaining Nibbana is compared to crossing an ocean/river/flood and going from this shore (this world) to the further shore (Nibbana.)
- A puthujjana attaches to a sensory input in two stages, explained as upaya/upadana or, equivalently, “purana kamma“/”nava kamma” stages. For example, a puthujjana in the human realm first “lands (patiṭṭha) on kama bhava” and then “grasps that arammana (āyūhaṁ) at the upadana stage.”
- One who lands in the stream (flood) sinks to the bottom; if he grasps a floating object, he will be swept away by the stream (flood).
- The Deva asked, “How did you cross the flood”? and the Buddha answered, “By neither landing nor grasping to something (that was floating), I crossed the flood.”
- The two stages are discussed in the posts “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“
2. I don’t understand the second question.
Your statement, “..Mundane Sila becoming Ariyakanta Sila, when one understands Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada is an example of such qualitative transformation/change/shift” explains everything.
- Mundane Sila becomes Ariyakanta Sila when one understands the Buddha’s worldview (i.e., gets rid of sakkaya ditthi and the other two associated samyojana) and becomes a Sotapanna.
- But one has not yet put it into practice.
- When one gets rid of kama raga (comprehending “distorted sanna” can help a lot here), one can become Sakadagami/Anagami.
- The last five samyojana are removed at the Arahant stage.
- They all involve understanding the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada at increasingly deeper levels.
taryal: “I am curious to know how you come up with the information you present in this website. It seems different from other (western) sources of Buddha dhamma. For instance, where can I find the description of 4th Jhāna (or OBE) in the Tipitaka? Also, why is it that you claim Abhidhamma can only be discovered by a Buddha but western scholars like Bhikkhu Bodhi say it was likely a later addition?”
I do not intend to coerce or persuade anyone to read my website. Anyone can read it, take what they like, and leave what they don’t. Of course, I will do my best to answer any questions they may have. The rest of my life is dedicated to informing others (those with an interest and an open mind) about the value of Buddha’s original teachings.
- All my information comes from the Pali Tipitaka.
- Yes. It is different from “other (western) sources of Buddha dhamma.” I have explained why here: “Elephants in the Room.”
- I have many posts about jhana on the website. You can search the website using the “Search” box on the top right and read what you like. If you have questions, you can post them on the forum by specifying the post.
- Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a book on Abhidhamma: “Abhidhamma – Introduction“
Tobias G: “Thus, “paṭicca samuppāda” always means the process that leads to rebirth (even within one lifetime).”
Yes, Tobias. More information in “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime“
OK, taryal. I understand that you are among most scientists who believe “science is never wrong.” But if you get deeper into Buddha Dhamma someday, you will see that Buddha Dhamma is the “ultimate science,” and modern science can not even come close.
- That is why you stated again, “When someone is manipulative enough to claim that “Nothing has happened in Origin of Life research since Miller – Urey experiment”, they have lost all credibility from the scientists that study this stuff.”
- I agree with the view that “Nothing significant has happened in Origin of Life research since the Miller–Urey experiment.”
- Making a bunch of organic molecules in an electric discharge is nothing compared to making a DNA strand. That is nothing compared to making a “living cell.” That is nothing compared to “creating a conscious life.”
- Scientists are nowhere close to any of those.
This discussion will not be useful because Modern science and Buddha Dhamma are built on two different foundations/axioms.
- Modern science believes the Earth started as a lifeless planet with conditions unsuitable for even primitive life. Furthermore, they believe life evolved gradually, and humans “evolved” only within the past few hundred thousand years.
- The Buddha stated that in the early stages, the Earth was very different in a radically different way. It had no trees or animals, but it was suitable for humans with “Brahma-like subtle/fine bodies.”
So, it is like arguing an issue starting with very different axioms. We can debate for years and years without agreeing.
- I suggest reading the following post, which lays out the basic ideas of Buddha’s worldview. I am not asking you to agree with it. But at least you will be able to see what I am trying to say: “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
Another related point is that modern science has evolved over the past few hundred years by developing theories along the way. Scientists discarded theories that did not work and developed new or revised theories.
- In contrast, the Buddha’s worldview, laid out in the above post, has not changed. It is in the Tipitaka. Even though scientists have not yet accepted those fundamental axioms, they have accepted many other aspects over time.
- See, for example, “Dhamma and Science – Introduction.”
P.S. I noted the following sentence at the end of your comment: “Just when you are done with the issue of materialism, you will encounter the issue of creationism. What a messed up world this is, lmao.”
- Buddha’s worldview does not belong to materialism or creationism.
- It is based on Paticca Samuppada: Things (and living beings) come into existence based on “root causes and prevailing conditions.”
- The “Origin of Life” section is an introduction to that subject. If you look at the list of posts in that section, the last post is on Paticca Samuppada.
Gad wrote: “..many Buddhists hold the belief that ariyas are never reborn in the arupa loka.”
- Here is how an Ariya can be reborn in an arupa realm: An Ariya who cultivated the four jhanas and enters the first arupa samapatti while in the human realm. If he/she dies without making further progress, they will be reborn in the ākāsānañcāyatana arupa realm. They attain Arahanthood from there. Since they are Ariyas, there is no need to listen/read Dhamma, i.e., no requirement of having sight and hearing. The same is true for those who die with higher three arupa attainments but without Arahanhood.
- The “Jhāna Sutta (AN 9.36)” (especially @markers 1.5 through 1.9) applies to cases like the above and NOT to those without Ariya jhana.
- As we discussed, the subject of jhana is complicated and is fully discernible only to a Buddha: “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“; “Jhāyissa, bhikkhave, jhānavisayo acinteyyo, na cintetabbo;”
- However, since I have spent a lot of time researching these issues, I need to write a couple more posts to complete the series.
Yes, y not. Sometimes, it is not easy to write a comment that fully communicates what is in one’s mind. I run into this issue all the time.
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Thank you for the references, y not.
- These suttas directly prove that jhanas are unnecessary for attaining any magga phala.
y not: The two suttas “Niṭṭhaṅgata Sutta (AN 10.63)” and “Aveccappasanna Sutta (AN 10.64)” do not rule out attaining various magga phala via jhanas.
- Those two suttas refer to attaining magga phala without any rupa jhana or arupa samapatti.
- If one attains either an Ariya or anariya jhana/samapatti, they will be reborn in a rupa loka or arupa loka (i.e., Brahma realms) and thus do not have a way to complete their journey from this loka, meaning kama loka.
- “Idha niṭṭhā” means “for certain without leaving kama loka.” Here, “idha” refers to “this loka” or “kama loka” and “niṭṭhā” means “with certainty.”
For all those who attain jhana, the above two suttas DO NOT APPLY.
- The new post “Ariya Jhāna and Anariya Jhāna – Main Differences” discusses suttas where one definitely leaves kama loka before ending their journey.
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You wrote: “But I also think that it is unfair to misrepresent the scientific work that has been done in this field. “
I don’t think I misrepresented anything. Do you think scientists even have the slightest idea of how to make a cell?
- I used Dr. Tour’s video because he mentioned some key aspects. Most of your comments are bashing his ideas. I did emphasize that I don’t agree with all of his views. I just wanted to show the views of other scientists who agree that scientists are nowhere close to making a cell in a laboratory. He is a reputable scientist.
- How exactly did I misrepresent the scientific work done up to now? Science has not been able to make a living cell, and they are nowhere close to that.
- A cell is a factory by itself. It produces its own energy. Most animal and plant cells are 0.01 – 0.10 mm in size!
- Please read the following post and watch the videos in there: “Living Cell – How Did the First Cell Come to Existence?
Even if they can create a cell, creating a “conscious life” is an impossibility. How can inert matter give rise to feelings of joy or sadness, perceptions, etc.?
1. Yes. “Savitakka/savicara” refers to moral thinking devoid of immoral thoughts. Thus, for example, anariya yogis may apply savitakka/savicara to cultivate anariya jhana.
- Cultivating Vipassana (insight mediation) requires having Ariya Samma Ditthi, i.e., comprehending the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana. In other words, they must have realized the unfruitfulness/danger of remaining in the rebirth process.
2. Yes, all your conclusions are correct. Just to emphasize: There are two versions of Samma Ditthi: one mundane and the other lokuttara directed to Nibbana.
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Yes. These are aspects open to different interpretations.
- It is possible for “humans with dense bodies” to go through walls, etc. What we perceive as “solid” is not really “solid.” This is another aspect of “distorted saññā.” See “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
According to modern science, all matter is made of atoms, and an atom is mostly empty. See #9 of “Pāṭihāriya (Supernormal Abilities) of a Buddha – Part I“
- Read all three posts in that section: “Buddhahood Associated Controversies.”
- Another related aspect is discussed in “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean.”
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Yes. What you described is summarized in the short “Bhāra Sutta (SN 22.22).”
- Living beings happily carry a huge burden (pañcupādānakkhandha), thinking it is going to bring them happiness!
- By the way, the Sinhala word for bhāra is similar, “බර.” It means a “load.”
Why do they happily carry that burden?
- They do not realize that most “sensory pleasures” are not vedanā but “distorted saññā.”
- For example, there is no “beauty in a woman” or a “sweet taste in sugar.”
- See “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on “Distorted Saññā”
- The title of the above post says it all: “Immoral thoughts arise based on ‘distorted saññā’.” Here, “nidāna” means “root cause” or “the basis.”
- Paticca Samuppada explains how our physical bodies arise with that “built-in distorted saññā,” which is why things like “beauty in a woman” or a “sweet taste in sugar” appear real. Even an Arahant gets those saññās (their bodies are built the same way), but their minds are not fooled; they fully understand the Paticca Samuppada process.
- Comprehending that can make a lot of progress. It is like seeing the “trick of a magician.” After that, the magic show is not as impressive anymore. By comprehending “Nature’s magic show,” one can get rid of kama raga!
P.S. All relevant posts at: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
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