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Gad wrote: “..many Buddhists hold the belief that ariyas are never reborn in the arupa loka.”
- Here is how an Ariya can be reborn in an arupa realm: An Ariya who cultivated the four jhanas and enters the first arupa samapatti while in the human realm. If he/she dies without making further progress, they will be reborn in the ākāsānañcāyatana arupa realm. They attain Arahanthood from there. Since they are Ariyas, there is no need to listen/read Dhamma, i.e., no requirement of having sight and hearing. The same is true for those who die with higher three arupa attainments but without Arahanhood.
- The “Jhāna Sutta (AN 9.36)” (especially @markers 1.5 through 1.9) applies to cases like the above and NOT to those without Ariya jhana.
- As we discussed, the subject of jhana is complicated and is fully discernible only to a Buddha: “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“; “Jhāyissa, bhikkhave, jhānavisayo acinteyyo, na cintetabbo;”
- However, since I have spent a lot of time researching these issues, I need to write a couple more posts to complete the series.
Yes, y not. Sometimes, it is not easy to write a comment that fully communicates what is in one’s mind. I run into this issue all the time.
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Thank you for the references, y not.
- These suttas directly prove that jhanas are unnecessary for attaining any magga phala.
y not: The two suttas “Niṭṭhaṅgata Sutta (AN 10.63)” and “Aveccappasanna Sutta (AN 10.64)” do not rule out attaining various magga phala via jhanas.
- Those two suttas refer to attaining magga phala without any rupa jhana or arupa samapatti.
- If one attains either an Ariya or anariya jhana/samapatti, they will be reborn in a rupa loka or arupa loka (i.e., Brahma realms) and thus do not have a way to complete their journey from this loka, meaning kama loka.
- “Idha niṭṭhā” means “for certain without leaving kama loka.” Here, “idha” refers to “this loka” or “kama loka” and “niṭṭhā” means “with certainty.”
For all those who attain jhana, the above two suttas DO NOT APPLY.
- The new post “Ariya Jhāna and Anariya Jhāna – Main Differences” discusses suttas where one definitely leaves kama loka before ending their journey.
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You wrote: “But I also think that it is unfair to misrepresent the scientific work that has been done in this field. “
I don’t think I misrepresented anything. Do you think scientists even have the slightest idea of how to make a cell?
- I used Dr. Tour’s video because he mentioned some key aspects. Most of your comments are bashing his ideas. I did emphasize that I don’t agree with all of his views. I just wanted to show the views of other scientists who agree that scientists are nowhere close to making a cell in a laboratory. He is a reputable scientist.
- How exactly did I misrepresent the scientific work done up to now? Science has not been able to make a living cell, and they are nowhere close to that.
- A cell is a factory by itself. It produces its own energy. Most animal and plant cells are 0.01 – 0.10 mm in size!
- Please read the following post and watch the videos in there: “Living Cell – How Did the First Cell Come to Existence?
Even if they can create a cell, creating a “conscious life” is an impossibility. How can inert matter give rise to feelings of joy or sadness, perceptions, etc.?
1. Yes. “Savitakka/savicara” refers to moral thinking devoid of immoral thoughts. Thus, for example, anariya yogis may apply savitakka/savicara to cultivate anariya jhana.
- Cultivating Vipassana (insight mediation) requires having Ariya Samma Ditthi, i.e., comprehending the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana. In other words, they must have realized the unfruitfulness/danger of remaining in the rebirth process.
2. Yes, all your conclusions are correct. Just to emphasize: There are two versions of Samma Ditthi: one mundane and the other lokuttara directed to Nibbana.
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Yes. These are aspects open to different interpretations.
- It is possible for “humans with dense bodies” to go through walls, etc. What we perceive as “solid” is not really “solid.” This is another aspect of “distorted saññā.” See “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
According to modern science, all matter is made of atoms, and an atom is mostly empty. See #9 of “Pāṭihāriya (Supernormal Abilities) of a Buddha – Part I“
- Read all three posts in that section: “Buddhahood Associated Controversies.”
- Another related aspect is discussed in “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean.”
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Yes. What you described is summarized in the short “Bhāra Sutta (SN 22.22).”
- Living beings happily carry a huge burden (pañcupādānakkhandha), thinking it is going to bring them happiness!
- By the way, the Sinhala word for bhāra is similar, “බර.” It means a “load.”
Why do they happily carry that burden?
- They do not realize that most “sensory pleasures” are not vedanā but “distorted saññā.”
- For example, there is no “beauty in a woman” or a “sweet taste in sugar.”
- See “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on “Distorted Saññā”
- The title of the above post says it all: “Immoral thoughts arise based on ‘distorted saññā’.” Here, “nidāna” means “root cause” or “the basis.”
- Paticca Samuppada explains how our physical bodies arise with that “built-in distorted saññā,” which is why things like “beauty in a woman” or a “sweet taste in sugar” appear real. Even an Arahant gets those saññās (their bodies are built the same way), but their minds are not fooled; they fully understand the Paticca Samuppada process.
- Comprehending that can make a lot of progress. It is like seeing the “trick of a magician.” After that, the magic show is not as impressive anymore. By comprehending “Nature’s magic show,” one can get rid of kama raga!
P.S. All relevant posts at: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
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I have revised the two posts: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra” and “Power of the Human Mind – Ariya Jhānā.”
- The statements that you quoted have been revised.
- Please feel free to ask questions.
Yes. Once the Tathāgata status is attained, there is no association with the world of 31 realms, except for the “vipaka kaya” or the physical body that arose due to a past kamma.
- However, since the mind is attached to the physical body, it cannot “extinguish” (i.e., separate from the world of 31 realms) until the physical body dies.
- We are so fortunate that that aspect is there!
P.S. Another critical point is the following.
- Any existence in the 31 realms is a “sankhata” (“prepared”), meaning it arises due to raga, dosa, and moha. Once raga, dosa, and moha are entirely removed from a mind, it cannot “latch on” anywhere in the 31 realms. Thus, the mind separates from the “suffering-filled world of 31 realms.”
- Another way to say the same: Paticca Samuppada stops running!
- These are the things to be contemplated.
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1. One can attempt to answer those ten questions. However, the answers depend on the approach taken.
- That is why the Buddha “set aside” those questions.
2. For example, someone with scientific training can try to answer the first four questions. In fact, that is what physicists are trying to do these days.
- But in Buddha Dhamma, one focuses on one’s own existence in this world.
- When an Arahant passes away (Parinibbana), he/she will no longer be “in this world of 31 realms.” So, such questions are irrelevant. One could say that Arahant‘s world was “not eternal” because it came to an end! But, of course, the world will exist for all others until they attain Parinibbana in some future time.
3. The fifth and sixth questions are regarding a “soul.” By mundane definitions (according to Abrahamic religions), there is an “unchanging, permanent entity” associated with any person.
- But that assumption does not hold in Buddha Dhamma.
- If there was such an “unchanging, permanent entity,” how would an Arahant attain Parinibbana?
4. A similar situation arises with the other four questions.
- Tathāgata means a Buddha, even though sometimes that word is used for Arahants, too.
- A Buddha (or an Arahant) had transcended the human realm, even though born a human.
- Even though the physical body that he was born with died 45 years after the Buddhahood, the Tathāgata status was attained at the Buddhahood. Those four questions are asked with the wrong assumption that the physical body was the Buddha.
5. There is no benefit in discussing such questions. When one’s understanding grows, one will be able to see the futility of even asking such questions.
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1. Vitakka and vicāra indicate “bad thoughts” or defiled thoughts.
- On the other hand, savitakka and savicāra indicate “good and wholesome thoughts.”
- Therefore, vitakka and vicāra always lead to a “stressful mind” and bad vipāka in the future.
- In the same way, savitakka and savicāra always lead to a “calm and stress-free mind” and good vipāka in the future.
2. I can see that both links you mentioned need some revision. I will revise them and discuss those points, hopefully later today.
Excellent observations with good links. Thank you! I recommend reading those links and asking questions if anything in unclear.
Sila (moral conduct) is established in two ways:
1. Avoiding immoral deeds (killing, stealing, lying, etc) leads to a sense of relief/calmness. As pointed out above, “Here, the most striking thing is how Sila can be a source of great joy in one’s life.”
- One does not need to delve into the deeper meanings of Buddha’s teachings to see this aspect.
- However, for a puthujjana (average person), it is easy to be tempted by “sensory temptations” and break this sila.
2. When one comprehends the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana, one can see the drawbacks/dangers of “giving in to sensory temptations.” Enjoying sensory pleasures (especially when that involves killing, stealing, lying, etc.) ALWAYS lead to bad outcomes in the long run.
- When that truth sinks into the mind (at the Sotapanna stage), one does not need to think about the drawbacks consciously all the time. That idea is PERMANENTLY established in that person’s mind. That is expressed by saying that a Sotapanna has removed three of the ten samyojana (mental bonds that bind one to the rebirth process.) Those three “ditthi samyojana” bind one to the rebirths in the apayas.
- That is why a Sotapanna is free of rebirths in the apayas. He/she has “Ariyakanta sila” or “unbreakable sila of a Noble Person.” This is achieved by understanding the Buddha’s “wider worldview” and getting rid of wrong views about this world and the “(illusory) temporary pleasures it offers.”
Thank you, Gad!
I tried to locate the sutta you quoted. I found “Sambuddha Sutta (SN 48.28).”
- That does not seem to be the one quoted.
But here is another sutta that discusses Paññāvimutti Arahants: “Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70).”
- Many people, even during the time of the Buddha, associated all Arahants with supernormal powers, etc.
- But, in reality, only relatively few Arahants had supernormal powers.
But ALL Arahants are free of suffering. That is the critical point. That is what the Buddha explained to wanderer Susīma in the above sutta.
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“However, majority of the websites and YouTube videos readily concede that such practice is not given in the suttas.”
- That is correct.
“ I also do not intend to mean that these people meditating on kasinas have been taken for a ride…”
- But that is true if that means “meditating on kasina objects like breath or a clay ball.”
1. Using kasina objects for meditation is advised in Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga. Some Theravadins have embraced that wrong practice.
- Buddhist mediation does not involve ANY worldly objects, including breath.
2. “Dasa kasiṇāyatana” are listed in the “Paṭhamakosala Sutta (AN 10.29).”
- Those anariya meditation techniques were there when the Buddha (Bodhisatta) was born. Many yogis cultivated them and attained rebirths in various Brahma realms (in rupa loka and arupa loka.)
- At marker 5.2: “Evaṁsaññinopi kho, bhikkhave, santi sattā.” OR “Some sentient beings perceive like this.”
- At marker 5.3: “Evaṁsaññīnampi kho, bhikkhave, sattānaṁ attheva aññathattaṁ atthi vipariṇāmo.” OR “But even the sentient beings who perceive like this decay and perish.” By that, it means those yogis who cultivated such meditations and reborn in Brahma realms undergo decay and death.
- At marker 5.4: “Evaṁ passaṁ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako tasmimpi nibbindati.” OR “Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with it.” Thus, they will no longer use such techniques.
3. Thus the sutta points out the futility of such kasina meditations.
- The keyword referring to kasina is “sañjānāti.” For example, at marker 4.3: “Pathavī kasiṇameko sañjānāti” means focusing one’s mind on a pathavi (clay ball.) In particular, “vāyo kasiṇameko sañjānāti” refers to breath meditation.
- Things will become clear when you understand the meaning of “sañjānāti.”
- See “Cognition Modes – Sañjānāti, Vijānāti, Pajānāti, Abhijānāti”
P.S. The phrase “aññathattaṁ atthi vipariṇāmo” can be understood by reading the post “Aniccaṁ Vipariṇāmi Aññathābhāvi – A Critical Verse.”
Yes. Patience and enduring hardships are critically important not only in anger but also when facing inevitable difficult situations.
- The “Sabbāsava Sutta (MN 2)” explains several ways to do that.
- Sections 2 and 4 are especially important in the above link in this regard.
