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Pathfinder wrote:
“I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:
“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,
Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,
Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,
Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”
“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing
Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,
Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,
Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”
Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. “
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The Buddha declared that Ven. Bahiya was the “highest in wisdom” among the disciples of the Buddha.
- Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.
- I hope to make that connection in the new series of posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.” The second post just posted, “Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World” explains why it is critical to pay attention to sensory inputs: seeing, hearing, etc.
- Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments. That is why the Loka sutta says the arising of the world can be stopped by stopping the rebirth process by attaining Arahanthood.
- When the Buddha talks about the “cessation of the world,” he does not refer to destroying the physical world with an uncountable number of stars and planets, which is impossible. He means the cessation of the world for a given person. Once an Arahant dies, there is no rebirth anywhere in this world of 31 realms; that is the “cessation of the world” for that Arahant.
“Raja” (not “rāja,” which means “king”) means “dirt.” Furthermore, “hara” means to “remove.” Thus, “rajoharaṇaṁ” means to “cleanse something of dirt/contamination.”
- The Buddha compared defilements (kilesa) that arise in the mind (greed, anger, ignorance) to dirt that makes a cloth or anything else dirty.
- When the Buddha showed a dirty cloth to Ven. Cūḷapanthaka, he probably said something like this: “This dirty cloth can be cleaned. In the same way, a mind can be cleaned too.” The Buddha is also likely to have instructed Ven. Cūḷapanthaka on how to clean a mind with Anapanasati or Satipatthana.
I could not find that account in the Tipitaka. It is probably in the Vinaya Pitaka.
However, the following suttas indicate how “raja” is used for “dirt.”
- “Sīhanāda Sutta (AN 9.11)“: “Seyyathāpi, bhante, rajoharaṇaṁ sucimpi puñchati asucimpi puñchati gūthagatampi … muttagatampi … kheḷagatampi … pubbagatampi … lohitagatampi puñchati, na ca tena rajoharaṇaṁ aṭṭīyati vā harāyati vā jigucchati vā.”
- “Sāriputta Sutta (AN 10.52)“: “Seyyathāpi, āvuso, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko ādāse vā parisuddhe pariyodāte acche vā udapatte sakaṁ mukhanimittaṁ paccavekkhamāno sace tattha passati rajaṁ vā aṅgaṇaṁ vā, tasseva rajassa vā aṅgaṇassa vā pahānāya vāyamati.”
- English translations in the links are good enough to get the idea.
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Pathfinder:“I agree that the opposite of icca is anicca, hence opposite of desire = not desired. However, icca itself did not have an aspect of time. Why are we adding this “long run” aspect to anicca, and where is the element of time stated in the line of “Yam pi iccam…”? Why not just see everything as undesireable in the first place without taking into account time?”
- There are many instances where one can fulfill one’s expectations in the short term. For example, suppose one wants to become wealthy by selling drugs. They can become successful and become rich. In some cases, they may even avoid getting caught until death. It seems that they got their desire fulfilled. However, they will pay for the damage done to ruin many lives in the future. So, being able to live a luxurious life for even 50 years will be minuscule if reborn as an animal or worse due to that immoral actions of selling drugs.
- The same applies to the next few verses quoted. Kamma vipaka may take time to materialize.
Pathfinder: “The first question was, “Bhikkhus: is any rūpaniccaor anicca?” or “Bhikkhus: can any rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction or cannot be kept to one’s satisfaction?”
Here, based on the earlier arguments, it does not have to be that rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction, but we can just interpret as “Bikkhus, are rupa liked or disliked in nature?” This will still be consisent with the rest of the sutta.”
- Yes. That is fine. Nothing in this world can be kept as one desires.
Regarding the last part of your comment:
- Yes. There are many ways to understand the meaning of anicca. Different (but still related) meanings “sink in” to the mind of different people.
- The bottom line is this: We engage in various actions, hoping they will lead to happiness in the long run. But nothing in this world can provide that. This idea can be tested at various time scales. It may seem to work in some or even many cases (you study for an examination and pass with the highest grades, for example), but in the long run (through the rebirth process), such “wins” do not make much difference.
- Temptations (based on “distorted sanna“) are extremely powerful. We all have read about how “highly-moral people” can succumb to temptations and take bribes, steal, kill, rape, etc. One can try to live a moral life, but without grasping the “anicca nature” and becoming a Sotapanna, it would be impossible to avoid some temptations.
Taryal: “I think I worded it a little poorly but based on above discussion, I meant to say that there is indeed an energy from the mind that is sent to the brain by the gandhabba when an individual decides to perform an action. This involves the cittas generated by the hadaya vatthu which comes from the kammic energy that created the gandhabba (and currently sustains it) but if the action is kammically neutral, it does not further create any kammic energy that can ripen in the future.”
- Yes. What you wrote above is correct.
Regarding the other two questions:
1. First, while lobha can be translated as “greed” it means mainly the greed involving sensory pleasures available in kama loka.
- “Raga” means “prioritizing being engaged in the rebirth process.” It comes at three levels: (i) kama raga is close to lobha, (ii) rupa raga is the desire to be reborn in a rupa loka Brahma realm by cultivating jhana, (iii) arupa raga is the desire to be reborn in an arupa loka Brahma realm by cultivating arupavacara samapatti (these are incorrectly labeled as “higher jhana” these days.
- I think the post I recommended above, “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna)” explains that. Please read that and ask questions by quoting from it if something is not clear.
2. “Also, does this mean kammically neutral actions don’t create any javana citta?”
- I think what you mean is: “Do kammically neutral actions involve javana citta?”
- The answer is no. Javana citta are generated only for creating kammic energy that can bring future vipaka. Those involve abhisankhara.
- It may take a bit more reading to understand these finer points/issues: “Word-for-Word Translation of the Tipiṭaka.”
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“When we decide to perform an action, the gandhabba sends a signal to the mana indriya in the brain in the form of kirana (ray system). “
- Yes. This is an “internal communication system” based on kammic energy. It uses energy imparted to the human gandhabba when it was created by kammic energy.
“This causes an electrical activity in the brain which will then use the energy that came from food to send this signal to other parts of the body by converting them to suitable electrochemical energies.”
- Yes. Scientists are studying this. However, they think decisions about moving body parts originate in the brain. They say a combination of electrical and chemical signaling systems operates. They say about 25% of the energy generated by food we eat is consumed by the brain.
“So conveniently, it should be fine to say there is a mental energy that comes from the gandhabba after deciding, which is then converted to other forms of energy. This is acceptable as long as we are mindful of the fact that this is not necessarily the kammic energy generated by javana citta that can create kamma vipaka in the future.”
- I am not sure what you mean by that. Please elaborate on that.
“Cittas arise and fade away. So it is understandable that there has to be some form of energy causing this.”
- Cittas arise and fade away as long as the gandhabba has enough kammic energy left over. At the end of its life (many thousands of years), gandhabba dies, and the citta generation stops. But during the last citta vithi, a new gandhabba or a lifeform (human, animal, Deva, Brahma, etc) is created using another “packet of kammic energy that had been accumulating in vinnana dhatu.”
- Any given lifestream has generated many such “packets of kammic energy” that can potentially create existences in various realms. The strongest one in line takes priority/precedence. This is how the rebirth process continues seamlessly.
- Ask questions on this last part also if it is not clear.
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“Then can we interpret that the “energy” required for a kammically neutral action, is just from a kamma vipaka? So perceiving sights, or generating a thought to tell the brain to move a finger?”
- Of course. Energy is required to do any work. So, even while getting the physical body to do “kammically neutral work,” the mind must provide instructions to the brain. That is included in the following part of my statement you quoted above: “(ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.”
- What I tried to explain is the following. While doing such “kammically neutral work,” the mind DOES NOT generate NEW kammic energy that can bring vipaka in the future (for example, to create another human/animal gandhabba or a Deva or a Brahma.)
To summarize: (i) New kammic energy is created (with javana citta) only when generating abhisankhara with raga, dosa, and/or moha. Any kammically-neutral action would not generate new kammic energy. (ii) All mind-brain interactions require minute amounts of energy; that comes from kammic energy that sustains human existence.
- It must be noted that in (i) above, not only immoral deeds but also any moral deeds (done without understanding the anicca nature) can generate kammic energy. This is a bit deeper issue some people may not be aware of. See “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna).”
- The basic idea explained in that post is the following: Immoral deeds lead to rebirth in the apayas, the four lowest realms filled with suffering. Moral deeds like giving to the poor (done with mundane versions of alobha, adosa, and amoha) lead to rebirth in the good realms like the human and Deva realms. Such moral deeds automatically become “kusala kamma” that lead to stopping rebirth (i.e., toward Nibbana) when one starts comprehending the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of any existence in the world.
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1. When we think about energy, we tend to think in terms of the types of energy we deal with every day. These types of energy can range from the energy needed to heat a house or drive a car to going for a walk or moving the eyes to look at someone.
- Those energies come from burning fuel in the first two cases to “burning/digesting food that we eat” in the last two cases.
- In all those cases, the energies involved are HUGE compared to kammic energies.
2. Kammic energies are created by our thoughts. Most people don’t even realize that thoughts can create energy!
- Furthermore, “the work” done by kammic energies is unimaginably tiny, too. For example, when kammic energy “creates” a human gandhabba (consists of a hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa), that is such small energy that we cannot quantify. Yet, that energy is enough to sustain that human gandhabba for thousands of years.
- When that human gandhabba enters a womb and merges with the zygote made by the intercourse between a male and female, the growth of the physical human body starts. However, that growth (up to a fully grown human) is via the food eaten by the mother (while in the womb) and the person after coming out of the womb.
3. The energy transfer mechanism between the gandhabba and the brain is also very efficient and managed by the kammic energy embedded in the gandhabba when it was formed.
- Thus, the kammic energy a human gandhabba acquires at the moment of its inception is enough to (i) sustain that gandhabba for many thousands of years and (ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.
- This is why the Buddha stated that the subject of kamma/kamma vipaka is discernible only to a Buddha: “Kamma vipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo.” See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).”
4. It is not possible to visualize the workings of kamma in terms of the “work/energy” we are used to.
- This is also why we cannot even imagine what a Brahma is like. A Brahma is also made of a hadaya vatthu and a few pasada rupa. Some can live for trillions of years with the kammic energy embedded in that fine “mental body.”
- For example, an electron cannot be seen with our eyes. A hadaya vatthu or a pasada rupa is a billion times smaller than an electron.
Even though we cannot visualize these entities or quantify them, it is good to have an idea of the difference in scales of ENERGY between the “material world” and “mental world.”
All bodily actions and speech are initiated in the mind.
- However, not all actions leave a “kammic residue” that can lead to vipaka in the future.
- All actions have vipaka (results). However, actions that do not involve raga, dosa, and/or moha only bring results at that time. For example, getting a glass of water to quench thirst is an action that will have no future consequences. The mind gets that task done, and that is the end of it. No future kammic consequences. The same applies to most things we do in a day (driving to work, cooking meals, etc.)
- Actions with raga, dosa, and/or moha may bring some vipaka (results) at that time and some in the future.
- When one gets angry and hits someone, that anger makes one’s face “distort” (one can easily identify an “angry face”), and that is a result (vipaka) that manifests at that time. But the rest of the kammic energy is “deposited” in the vinnana dhatu to bring vipaka for that immoral action in the future.
In all cases, a signal must be sent from the mind to the brain to move that body part the way the mind wants.
- P.S. ANY energy spent by the brain (and involved in moving body parts) comes from the food we eat. Those energies are NOT kammic energies.
- Please ask questions if the above is not clear. These are the basic/fundamental facts of Buddha Dhamma.
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Yes. Buddha Dhamma is deep enough. I believe that one should pay more attention to the fact that “sensual pleasures” are a mirage and mind-made. That “distorted sanna” is built into our physical and mental bodies via Paticca Samuppada. I will try to explain that in simpler terms with the new series in the “Meditation” section: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- It is better not to be distracted by “philosophical sidetracks.”
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Dawson: “If someone had only a couple of minutes to live and their dying wish was to learn about what the Buddha taught, I believe that an ariya would, without hesitation, explain the three characteristics of nature.”
- Yes. Furthermore, the same principle is embedded in the Four Noble Truths, the three characteristics of nature (Tilakkhana), or Paticca Samuppada.
- They all describe why/how our immoral actions lead to future suffering. The key here is not all actions but immoral actions.
- Puthujjana (average humans, including anyone with even the highest intelligence who has not heard/understood the Four Noble Truths) engage in immoral actions because they are unaware of the Tilakkhana or “true nature of the world” (anicca, dukkha, anatta.) Paticca Samuppada explains how immoral actions (abhisankhara) due to ignorance (avijja) lead to future suffering. It starts with “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara” and ends with “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka,…” or the “whole mass of suffering.”
- In the above, anicca nature says all our immoral actions or abhisankhara (believing sensory pleasures can provide lasting happiness) are unfruitful/dangerous. They lead to dukkha or suffering. That is why all such efforts are “devoid of value” and lead to helplessness (when reborn in an apaya), i.e., they are of the anatta nature. That is one way to understand Tilakkhana or the three characteristics of nature.
Kammic energy is immeasurably small.
- Kammic energy does not directly do any “macroscopic work,” like moving a hand or even batting an eyelid.
- Pathfinder’s example, “mind energy > electrical energy > kinetic energy to move the hand,” is not correct. The energy to move a hand does not come directly from kammic energy generated in the mind. In fact, no kammic energy is generated to move a hand if that action is a “neutral action,” like picking up a glass of water to drink.
- Now, if a hand is moved to hit someone with anger, that generates kammic energy. But that kammic energy is deposited in the vinnana dhatu to bring future vipaka for that immoral action. The energy to move our body parts comes from the food we eat.
Please keep asking questions if the above is not clear. It is important to understand it.
I think we are going off track here.
- Our suffering arises from our actions based on greed, anger, and ignorance.
- Since greed and anger/hate arise due to ignorance about the true nature of this world, ignorance is the root cause.
- What is the connection of “separation” with ignorance? Someone, please explain!
The Pāli Canon, Tipiṭaka (meaning “three Piṭaka”), is not restricted to the Sutta Piṭaka. It has two more: Vinaya Piṭaka and Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
- The three Piṭakās or sections are inter-consistent.
- See “Tipiṭaka – A Systematic Approach.”
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1. Buddha Dhamma is not a religion in the sense that there is no “savior” who can save anyone from future suffering or promise eternal happiness.
- It is a “previously unheard worldview.”
- If one can grasp that worldview, one can see that sensory pleasures and mental/physical suffering arise from one’s actions. Some actions lead to a “good future with mostly sensory pleasures,” and others lead to a “bad future filled with suffering.”
- But because of the craving for sensory pleasures, most end up in realms/existences with more suffering than pleasures.
2. The astonishing aspect is that any sensory pleasure experienced is due to the “distorted sanna” built into each existence.
- It makes a huge impact if one can understand this issue.
- For example, one can enjoy a good magic show. A good magic show is when one cannot figure out what the “trick is.”
- But the Buddha exposed nature’s magic show. But it takes an effort to understand that.
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“I wish resolving this issue was easier.”
1. We have reached a point where I can no longer give advice or explanations along this line based purely on “mundane logic,” as practiced by mundane philosophers.
- When one tries to understand Buddha Dhamma through “mundane logic,” that does not work. A mind has to undergo a paradigm change.
- This is summarized in the phrase “atakkāvacaraṁ” (beyond mundane logic/inquiry) in the “Ajāta Sutta (Iti 43)” that describes Nibbana.
2. To put it in another way: If one needs to learn to swim, he can learn about swimming strokes, how to float, etc., only to a limited extent without getting into the water.
- Buddha Dhamma cannot be “taught” at a deeper level; it must be learned. If that was possible, the Buddha could have “saved” everyone living at that time. Even he could not do that.
- That involves learning the basics and starting practice.
- You asked many questions: ” Why exactly are you so confident that no one other than Buddha, not even Arahants can discover those aspects of Nature? If Arahants recited the finalized Abhidhamma, should it not be explicitly mentioned that this is the work of Buddha? Interestingly, it also doesn’t seem mentioned anywhere in the Tipitaka that “Abhidhamma is a later addition which was invented by bhikkhus” or something like that…”
- My confidence is based on my practice and understanding. One’s confidence about the Buddha, Dhamma, and the Sangha (not merely bhikkhus, but on the Noble Persons) grows with one’s understanding. One first becomes a Sotapanna Anugami by cultivating wisdom or panna (called dhammanusari) or by cultivating faith or saddha (called saddhanusari). The latter is not “blind faith” but is based on panna to an extent. It takes an effort to undergo that paradigm change. Some succeed, and some don’t because they are unwilling to spend enough time and effort.
