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- All types of “bodies” (kaya) of living beings in various realms arise based on pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).
- Humans and animals have a dense physical body as well as a mental body. Devas have less dense physical bodies, and Brahmas have mostly the mental body.
- Kayagatasati Sutta points out that all types of “bodies” (kaya) have their origin in PUK.
- Satipatthana Sutta describes the way to stop the arising of any type of such bodies because none of them can provide a refuge from suffering in the rebirth process.
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Since I have the figure in my comment on July 30, 2024 at 10:07 am above, this is a good opportunity to point out a few things about that figure.
1. When a sensory input (arammana) comes in, the mind first experiences “bahiddha vinnana.” The term “bahiddha” means “bahira + iddha” where “bahira” means external and “iddha” means ” to get established.”
- A human mind (or vinnana) is first established in the “dhatu” or “initial stage,” where a “set of distorted kama sanna” is automatically experienced regardless of whether or not one has any magga phala.
- That is what gives the “sweetness of sugar,” “beauty/handsomness” of a woman/man, etc.
2. That “kama sanna” then triggers “kama sankappa” (mainly mano abhisankhara) based on one’s samyojana/anusaya.
- For example, since all ten samyojana are intact in a puthujjana, they generate the strongest “kama sankappa.“
- A Sotapanna has removed three samyojana, and hence the attachment will be less, etc..
- Since this “attachment” is based on one’s ditthi, tanha, and mana, it is called “ajjhatta” (“ajjha” for “oneself” and “atta” for “taking it to be fruitful.”
- Since an Arahant has no samyojana (or ditthi, tanha, and mana) left, that mind will not get to this stage, i.e., no pancupadanakkhandha (PUK) gets started.
3. The “ajjhatta vinnana” is the beginning of the accumulation of a PUK.
- In the next step, the mind makes its own version of the “external rupa” received. This is the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa” for visual input (as indicated in the figure.)
- In most suttas, by “rupa” it is meant the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa.” P.S. This is the rupa that is of “anicca nature,” not the “external rupa.” This “rupa” (it is related to the “namarupa” in PS) arises in the mind only because that mind has not fully grasped the “anicca nature” (of course, that happens at the Arahant stage).
4. In the next step, “kama guna” arises based on one’s gati at that moment.
- Thus, the same person may be attracted to a sensory event while drunk, for example, but may not while in a “good mindset.”
5. The mind gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage only if the attachment is strong in the above step.
- This is really the time the PUK (pancupadanakkhandha) starts. This is the “upadana” stage where “new or nava kamma” are accumulated, as indicated at the top of the figure.
- Thus, the stage before that is called the “upaya stage.” No significant kamma is accumulated in this stage, as indicated by the narrow expansion of the “cone.”
- Strong kamma are accumulated in the “nava kamma stage” with kaya, vaci, and mano abhisankhara. That is indicated by the “widening cone” starting at the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage.
- Also, the “expansion” indicates “punna kamma” and the downward indicates “apunna kamma” or immoral kamma.
6. The “purana kamma” (or “upaya“) stage arises automatically according to one’s samyojana/anusaya. We don’t have direct control over that stage.
- However, in the “nava kamma” (or “upadana“) stage, kamma is accumulated consciously.
- The mind gets increasingly contained as it goes through the steps shown.
- In the “cleansing process” (or cultivating “sila” or “indriya samvara“), one needs to start at the rightmost stage.
7. I have provided more information in the comment above the one with the figure.
- As discussed there, the removal of samyojana/anusaya, (as well as one’s gati) happens by cultivating mindfulness/sila/indriya samvara AND understanding the details of this kamma accusation process, i.e., how a PUK arises with an arammana.
- Reading the links given will help you understand the process.
- Also see “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” (especially #11). However, one will eventually need to read posts in the time sequence given in “New / Revised Posts” from around 7/29/23.
8. That is a brief overview. Feel free to ask questions.
- You can ask questions on the above comments or any old post by referring to the specific post.
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You are correct. The term “bhava diṭṭhi” appears in a few suttas. I should have looked it up.
- My way of learning is to understand concepts rather than looking up definitions. Your initial question can be resolved by examining what “bhava” means.
Your initial question was: “If a Sotāpanna eliminates ucchedadiṭṭhi, and thus vibhavataṇhā is removed at the Sotāpanna stage, why isn’t bhava taṇhā eliminated as well?”
- One with uccheda ditthi does not believe in rebirth. However, they have kama raga. Does not kama raga lead to “bhava” within this lifetime? Specifically, they are in “kama bhava” during this lifetime. One cannot be in a bhava without having tanha for it.
- In other words, “kama tanha” leads to “kama bhava.” In PS, “tanha paccaya upadana,” “upadana paccaya bhava.”
- P.S. In fact, a Sotapanna has not removed not only kama tanha, but also rupa tanha and arupa tanha. Kama tanha (and kama raga) is removed at the Anagami stage and rupa and arupa tanha (associated with rupa raga and arupa raga) removed only at the Arahant stage.
In the second comment you wrote: “What I wanted to ask is, if one becomes a Sotapanna by eliminating all ditthi (wrong views), why does bhava ditthi still remain?”
- As I mentioned in my first comment, a Sotapanna has not removed all of ditthis. One becomes a Sotapanna by removing the ten types of miccha ditthi and sakkaya ditthi. They may have other minor ditthis.
- However, bhava diṭṭhi does not remain in a Sotapanna.
- Sotapanna has kama raga/kama tanha (and thus remains in kama bhava), not because he has bhava diṭṭhi. As we have discussed, the root cause of kama tanha is “distorted sanna.”
- We are bound to this world by ditthi, tanha, and mana. The ten samyojana can be divided among them as follows: Three “ditthi samyojana“: sakkaya ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbata paramasa. Tanha associated with four: kama raga, patigha, rupa raga, arupa raga. Mana is associated with three: asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja.
You wrote: “I think that bhava tanha refers to rupa raga and arupa raga because in the Vibhanga it says, ‘Rūpadhātu arūpadhātu paṭisaṁyutto rāgo sārāgo cittassa sārāgo—ayaṁ vuccati “bhava taṇhā”’. Therefore, when there is kama tanha, there is no bhava tanha.”
- Based on my above clarification, I don’t see how that definition can hold. We need to keep in mind that there could be minor issues with the Commentaries (Vibhanga is a Commentary included with the Tipitaka; this is correct most of the time). However, I don’t see how bhava tanha can be restricted to rupa loka and arupa loka.
- It is possible that the confusion comes from the categories in the following sutta: “Taṇhā Sutta (Iti 58)“: “Tisso imā, bhikkhave, taṇhā. Katamā tisso? Kāma taṇhā, bhava taṇhā, vibhava taṇhā—imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso taṇhā”ti. So, it is correct that there are those three types.
- However, as I understand, kāma taṇhā is part of bhava taṇhā due to the reasons I provided above. Also see “Kāma Tanhā, Bhava Tanhā, Vibhava Tanhā.”
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These are issues that only a Buddha can fully understand. However, we can try to get an idea with the following observations.
1. It is not necessary to become a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni to attain any magga phala. Of course, once attaining Arahanhood, one must become a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni within seven days because a “householder” cannot “bear” Arahanthood for longer than that.
- We know that many women and men attained all stages of magga phala without becoming bhikkhu or bhikkhuni.
2. Women did not live alone, especially in the days of the Buddha. So, bhikkhunis‘ living quarters were near those of the bhikkhus. The Vinaya Pitaka provides accounts of various issues associated with that issue. We also note that the Buddha enacted more Vinaya rules for bhikkhunis than bhikkhus.
3. As you pointed out, we also know that the prediction of the Buddha was correct.
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Let me put your questions in a different order.
“What is bhavadiṭṭhi?”
- I don’t think there is such a term in the Tipitaka.
” Isn’t a Sotāpanna attained by eliminating all diṭṭhis?”
- No. One becomes a Sotapanna by removing the ten types of miccha ditthi and sakkaya ditthi. They may have other minor ditthis.
“If a Sotāpanna eliminates ucchedadiṭṭhi, and thus vibhavataṇhā is removed at the Sotāpanna stage, why isn’t bhavataṇhā eliminated as well?”
- Why do you think the removal of uccheda ditthi leads to the removal of bhava tanha?
- Uccheda ditthi means not believing in the rebirth process. Would not one with uccheda ditthi have kama raga (and thus bhava tanha)?
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If one cannot see the drawbacks of carrying a physical body burdened with all kinds of problems (injuries, sicknesses, aches, pains, etc.), one would not worry about stopping the “arising of such a body” in the future.
- Furthermore, we need to look at the “whole picture.”
- Do you think you will be reborn human again and again? On the contrary, the Buddha stated that only an unimaginably tiny fraction of humans are reborn in the “good realms” (human, Deva, Brahma.)
- See “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm.”
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The following figure can be helpful:
Download/Print: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – 2- revised“
It is from the post: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” which I highly recommend. Of course, one needs to keep going back to earlier posts to “fill in gaps.”
- All posts in sequence are in “New / Revised Posts.”
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The two types of vedana are discussed in detail here: “Vedanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“
- The basic idea in bahiddha and ajjhatta versions of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana is simple.
- Let’s consider a “taste” (rasa rupa). The first impression of a taste is formulated by the brain (based on the sensors in the tongue) and is sent to the “seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu).” The human body (more accurately, the blueprint for it) is made by kammic energy to provide a sweet taste for sugar, for example. That is the “distorted sanna.” If it is a “real sanna,” tigers or lions would also like that taste, but they do not. So, this is the “bhaddha rupa” received initially by hadaya vatthu. Thus, the initial cittas (bahiddha citta) generated are based on that “undefiled, but still with distorted sanna.” The vinnana there is “bahiddha vinnana” with corresponding cetasika (corresponding to “bahiddha sankhara ” and “bahiddha dhamma.”)
- But that “sweetness of sugar” may trigger attachment to that taste in anyone with kama raga samyojana/anusaya intact. By the way, there will be variations at the individual level. For example, while an “attractive woman” is perceived similarly by all, different people may prefer certain types of “beauty.”
- P.S. Based on that attachment, the mind makes its version of the “bahiddha rupa.” That “mind-made rupa” is the ajjhatta rupa. However, that is not the “final version of the ajjhatta rupa.” The mind may be stuck contemplating its attractiveness, generating further mano sankhara. If the attachment is strong, it gets to the “upadana” stage, when strong kamma is done with mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara. This is where a lot of details come in: ““Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- Based on that attachment, “ajjhatta versions” of all those entities arise automatically. We don’t have direct control over that. P.P.S. We have control over the “expansion of the vinnana” only after the “upadana” stage; this is where “sila” or “indriya samvara” plays a crucial role; see below.
- We must gradually change our gati to be attached to such sensory inputs to stop that from happening.
- Two factors can contribute to changing our “gati.” (i) We can forcefully stop eating tasty foods. While that can help if done gradually, forcing it may cause “patigha” or “agitation of mind.” Furthermore, that, by itself, cannot eliminate “kama raga samyojana/anusaya.” (ii) But if one can understand the mechanism of how the “tastiness of sugar” arises due to “distorted sanna,” then one can see that one has been “fooled by that distorted sanna.” See “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā). ” This is the foundation of insight mediation of Vipassana. It is only the knowledge or wisdom (panna) that can eliminate/remove various types of samyojana/anusaya from the mind.
- However, (i) above also plays a key role. Restricting the practice only to Vipassana may not work. Controlling one’s sensory faculties (same as “sila” or “indriya samvara“) plays a crucial role in the practice.
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“Here it is more of questioning the exact words. Since only the words “kaye kaya” is swapped with “vedanasu vedana” in the vedana section, if you say that “kaye kaya” means “a part of kaya” then would “vededanasu vedana” also mean “a part of vedana”?”
- Of course. “Vededanasu vedana” means “a part of vedana.” That is to indicate two types of vedana arising.
- Same applies to “cittesu cittanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled citta (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled cittas arise in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later automatically.
- The same applies to “dhammesu dhammanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled dhamma (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled dhammas arise automatically in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later.
- Here, “defiled” means with raga, dosa, or moha.
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“Does “vedanāsu vedanā” mean “a part of vedana”? If yes then which part?”
- There are two types of vedana: In the initial stage, “bahiddha vedana” (sukha, dukkha, adukkhamasukha) is experienced also by Arahants. In the next stage (next moment) mind-made “ajjhatta vedana” (somanassa, domanassa, upekkha) is experienced by those with samyojana/anusaya left, i.e., such vedana do not arise in Arahants.
- Have you read the posts I recommended? It is unlikely that you have.
Pathfinder raised the question about how the “Paṭikūlamanasikāra pabba” section of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” tallies with the concepts of ajjhatta kaya and bahiddha kaya. The English translation in the above link does not have the complete text for that section. So, I will use the link provided by Pathfinder: “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).” I have linked to that section: Section D.
Let me try to explain briefly the connection.
English translation of the first two paragraphs is correct: “Again, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: ‘In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.’
Just as if there were a double-mouthed provision bag, full of various kinds of grains and seeds, such as hill-paddy, paddy, mung-beans, cow-peas, sesame seeds and husked rice, and as if there were a man with discerning eyes, who, after having opened that bag would examine the contents, saying: “This is hill-paddy, this is paddy, these are mung-beans, these are cow-peas, these are sesame seeds and this is husked rice”; in this same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: “In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, faeces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.”
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The next paragraph in Pali: “Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti. Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati. Evaṃ pi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.”
- This is a highly condensed verse that needs to be explained in detail. But I will point out the essential aspects.
1. Here, “kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to “a part of the pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).”
- Kaya = PUK.
- “kāye kāya” refers to other kāya within the PUK. It is the initial stage of PUK, which starts with an arammana. The bahiddha kaya arises first (with “distorted sanna“) and is immediately followed by the ajjhatta kaya (according to the samyojana/anusaya present in that mind.)
2. The next part, highlighted in blue above, refers to the root causes for the origination of our physical bodies (as explained in the first two paragraphs).
- First, our physical bodies cannot arise without the mental body (gandhabba) arising at the cuti-patisandhi moment (when human existence was grasped.)
- There, “samudaya dhamma” refers to examining the root causes of the arising (“samudaya”) of the mental body (gandhabba). To stop that from happening in the future (“vaya dhamma”) one needs to understand the roles of the bahiddha kaya and ajjhatta kaya.
3. The subsequent phrase “‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti” requires a detailed explanation.
- Once that process is understood, “Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.” OR (as the English translation correctly says): “In this way, he lives detached (from sensory attractions), without clinging to anything in the world, because now with cultivated wisdom (ñāṇamattāya) he realizes the root cause of craving is “distorted sanna.”
Of course, #3 requires a detailed explanation.
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This is why the Buddha stated, “My Dhamma has never been known to the world.”
- This is really a deeper aspect, but if understood, it will help immensely to eliminate “kama raga” or “craving sensual pleasures.”
- All our cravings are mind-made, based on “distorted sanna.“
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I am afraid that there is more involved in the correct explanation of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)”.
It is indeed the statement you made in:
“Qns 1:
Several translations interpret ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā as internal and external, it could well be wrong.”
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Ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā in this context do not refer to internal and external. In particular, the Pali word for external is Bāhira.
- You need to read the posts I suggested above to understand the meanings of ajjhatta and bahiddha.
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I know that only a few people may have understood the correct meanings.
- This is the first time that I pointed out the connection to the interpretation of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
- I will try to write a post in two weeks to try to explain the connection a bit more. Next week’s post will focus on the connection between Buddha Dhamma and Vedic literature.
However, in the meantime, I will be happy to answer questions from those who may have at least partially understood the concepts of ajjhatta and bahiddha.
You wrote: “The second meaning of vibhava tanha, which is opposite to bhava tanha, is the tanha that seeks to eliminate the ‘conditioned bhava (kamma bhava and uppatti bhava)’ that can only be removed through the cessation of kammic energy.”
- Kammic energy can never be “removed” or “ceased.” P.S. Once energy is created, it will either bring about an effect (if the conditions are satisfied) or fade with time. For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people, but since he had attained Arahanthood, that kammic energy could not bring a “bhava” during his life or at death.
- Accumulated kammic energy cannot bring a rebirth (or even any temporary bhava during a lifetime) for an Arahant because the “upadana paccaya bhava” step (together with all the steps in PS) does not work.
So, I don’t see a “second meaning to vibhava tanha.”
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TripleGemStudent wrote: “I thought what’s said was simple, practical and another way to say how anapana sati / satipatthana can be practiced / carried out. I would also like to add “not just realizing something negative”, but also positive and neutral. Or sukha (sōmanassa), dukkha ( dōmanassa), adukhamasukha (upekkha) using the teachings on the “all” (sabba) to reflect / contemplate on the tilakkhana nature of what has arisen and know it’s cessation.”
- This is a critical point to think about deeply.
1. A Paticca Samuppada process starts with a sensory input (arammana.)
- An arammana leads to a sukha , dukkha , or adukhamasukha vedana first. This is the “bahidda vinnana” stage. Here, sukha and dukkha vedana arise ONLY due to the physical body. All other types (seeing, hearing, taste, etc.) only lead to adukhamasukha vedana. However, ALL kinds of arammana trigger “distorted sanna.”
- This “distorted sanna” gives a false perception” that sugar is sweet or a particular woman is attractive.
- That happens in the mind of anyone born a human. That set of “distorted sanna” is associated with any human body, and thus arises also in an Arahant.
2. In the next moment (within a split second), that “distorted sanna” triggers one’s samyojana/anusaya.
- That leads to the arising of “mind-made vedana” which are sōmanassa, dōmanassa, or upekkha (neutral) and the initial attachment occurs at the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.
- Then, the mind keeps attaching to that arammana to varying degrees, depending on the situation.
- If the mind gets firmly attached, it gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage, and that is when “new kamma” or “nava kamma” accumulation starts.
- See “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” See the figure in #7.
- P.S. Since an Arahant has no samyojana/anusaya left, this step (and subsequent steps) DO NOT occur in an Arahant‘s mind.
3. I have been trying to explain this concept because it is critically needed to cultivate Satipatthana Bhavana correctly.
- In the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the following verse appears repeatedly: “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” in the Kāyānupassana section.
- Similarly, “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati” appears in the Vedanānupassanā section (@11.11), “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā citte cittānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā citte cittānupassī viharati” appears in the Cittānupassanā section (@12.18), and “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati” appears in the Dhammānupassanā section.
4. Therefore, if anyone wants to understand the correct version of Satipaṭṭhāna, one needs to understand the concept of “distorted sanna,” bahidda vinnana, ajjhatta vinnana, etc.
- Of course, one needs to study this from the beginning in the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” including the background material there.
5. Feel free to ask questions from any of those old posts. Please provide the link to the post and the relevant bullet number.
- Note: My old posts in the “Maha Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” section do not discuss these aspects. It is a “first-level” to be grasped.
Skywander wrote: “I agree, yet, for some of us, the concentration needed to successfully do vipassana is out of our skills.”
- Each person can do Vipassana at their level of understanding.
- The simplest way is to read a post from this website or listen to a verbal discourse while paying complete attention. The engagement and interest will grow if one starts grasping even a single concept.
- I know of many people who listen to discourses while doing household work. Others read posts on this website without paying much attention or not reading the suggested links. Those are bad habits.
- At the beginning of numerous suttas the Buddha started with the following verse: “taṁ suṇātha, sādhukaṁ manasikarotha, bhāsissāmī” which means, “Listen and pay full attention, I will speak.”
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Skywander wrote: “The problem I have when I try to do real vipassana is that by examining citta and dhammas my mind ends lost in itself.”
- This is the same issue as above.
- Vipassana can be done while sitting at a table reading a post on the computer. Just make sure to pay complete attention.
- Initially, it is best to pick a post (or section) where you have some understanding. Pick a time when distractions are minimal.
- If it helps, you could ” watch the breath” for a few minutes to calm the mind. People in Asian countries start a meditation session by offering flowers/lighting a candle to the Buddha and reciting a few verses. That helps calm the mind, too.
- As you make progress, you will be able to sit somewhere and contemplate a Dhamma concept. That is the Vipassana I do every day. Whenever needed, I get up to look up a sutta or do an online search. The goal is to increase one’s understanding, not to be forced to sit like a statue.
- Once getting some traction, this will become a habit. I wake up thinking about a Dhamma concept and go to sleep thinking about a Dhamma concept. Then I do that throughout the day too. Of course, not everyone can do the latter. I can do that since I am retired!
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