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The English translation of “Āhāra Sutta (SN 12.11)” incorrectly says that “kabaḷīkāro āhāra” is “solid feed.
- However, all four types of “āhāra” are “food for the mental body.”
- That is just like “rupa” in most cases refers to the “mind-made rupa,” and “vedana” means “mind-made vedana.”
- All of those can be “stopped from arising” (nirodha.)
- For example, “Upādānaparipavatta Sutta (SN 22.56)” states “āhāranirodhā rūpanirodho.” That means “all “mind-made rupa” can be stopped from arising by “stopping all types of “food for the mental body.” An Arahant can see external rupa and does eat solid food!
1. All four types of “food” (āhāra) are “food for the mind to be engaged in the rebirth process. An Arahant does not take in any of the four types. An Anagami does not “consume kabalinkā āhāra” even though they (and Arahants) eat food.
2. Kabalinkāhāra (kabalinkā āhāra) is not physical food. It is the CRAVING for tastes, smells, and body touches in general. As we know, those three senses are available only in kama loka (the lower 11 realms, including the human realm and six Deva realms.)
- When craving for the three types of “close contact sensual pleasures” is stopped, kabalinkā āhāra ceases (nirodha).
- At that point, one is freed of rebirths in kama loka (the lower 11 realms, including the human realm and six Deva realms.)
- The other three types of “āhāra intake” by the mind stop at the Arahant stage.
3. “Phassa” in “phassa āhāra” refers to “samphassa.” That is not merely contact but “contact with san” or “san phassa,” which rhymes with “samphassa.”
4. See “Āhāra (Food) in Udayavaya Ñāna” This is an old post and may need to be revised. I see that I have mainly discussed kabalinkā āhāra.
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Yes. Excellent explanation.
Another way to look at it is as follows.
(1) Upon attaining the Arahant stage, the mental body (manomaya kaya/gandhabba) undergoes a HUGE change. All anusaya/samyojana/gati are eliminated.
(2) However, while undergoing some changes, the physical body still lives as a human body and is subjected to decay and death as for any other human. Thus, an Arahant would feel pain if injured and still generate “distorted sannas” based on other sensory inputs. Of course, such “distorted sanna” cannot lead to a defiled mind because all anusaya/samyojana/gati have been eliminated. In other words, all biochemical processes would be the same as for other humans, but a defiled mind can never arise!
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“Would you say that it is a kamma vipaka to change his gati? If an arahant is subject to the same accident, would he have a similar result?”
1. An Arahant has no “gati” left. So, it is not possible to talk about changing “gati” of an Arahant.
- Please keep in mind that we are talking about “defiled gati.”
2. There are only five major “gati,” but there can be many minor varieties within them: “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68).”
- An Arahant was born with “human (or manussa) gati.” But upon attaining the Arahant stage, not only his “manussa gati” but also the possibility of acquiring any other major gati types (niraya, tiracchānayoni, pettivisayo, or, devā) were all eliminated.
- Of course, niraya, tiracchānayoni, pettivisayo belong to the apayas. The devā category includes the six Deva realms and 20 rupa loka and arupa loka Brahma realms.
- It may need some serious contemplation.
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The physical body of an Arahant is subject to the same biochemistry as any other human body.
- Of course, an Arahant would not consume any drugs or alcohol. But if he did, the biochemical reactions in the body would be the same.
We need to remember that the workings of kammic energy dictate “nature’s laws.” All biochemical processes take place according to kammic laws.
- Both mental and physical bodies in human bhava (any bhava) are according to the gati that led to grasping that human bhava in kama loka.
- One’s gati are according to the (abhi)sankhara cultivated. That lead to “bhava paccaya jati” according to Paticca Samuppada (“pati iccha” leading to “sama uppada.”) That is a critical outcome of Paticca Samuppada.
- See “Paṭicca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+“Sama+uppāda”
- This is a critical point to understand.
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I don’t know the accuracy of that statement in Wikipedia.
- If it is true, then it must be “Asura god.”
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Yes. It is true that “distorted saññā” is “built-in” to our mental AND physical bodies by kammic energy (via Paṭicca Samuppāda.)
- However, that “distorted saññā” in the mental body (specifically the “seat of the mind” or hadaya vatthu) cannot be triggered until the hadaya vatthu receives a sensory input.
- As we have discussed in that post you quoted, that sensory signal must be first processed by the brain. Depending on the status of brain development, some signals do not get processed or sent to the hadaya vatthu. That is the main point I tried to convey in that post. Also see “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body.”
- Only after seven years of age (when the brain is fully developed), the hadaya vatthu receives most sensory signals.
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It is a good summary. However, there is another aspect to be considered.
- Because of the reasons you discussed, there is an innate sanna of “me” and “mine” in all humans regardless of whether they believe in a soul (sassata ditthi) or believe that death of the physical body is the “end” (uccheda ditthi). This is one of the ten samyojana (asmi mana) that will disappear only at the Arahant stage.
- That innate sanna of “me” and “mine” arises because of a “distorted sanna” that is also “built-in” to our bodies.
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Hello Skywander!
Regarding what you wrote: “Another thing I felt was really off was the “only seven more rebirths after one attains sotapanna”. The samsara is so vast, the difference between a sotapanna and arahant is so large, it didn’t feel natural than all sotapanas would always need only seven more rebirth..”
- You are right. The suttas refer to a maximum of seven “bhava,” which differs from “jati” or births. See “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”
- More technical information in “Aṭṭha Purisa Puggalā- Eight Noble Persons” where the topic is discussed in #5.
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You asked: “If possible, Lal, could you tell me if there is some important piece of key information to understand the Suttas that Venerable Waharaka Thero taught, but you haven’t been able to put into the website?”
- I don’t understand this question. Why wouldn’t I write about anything that would be important? All the fundamental/critical concepts Waharaka Thero discussed are on the website.
- If you are asking whether I have understood Waharaka Thero’s explanations, I think so.
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Yes, I see nothing wrong with what you wrote. Now, try to understand the concepts by thinking about real-time situations. You may have understood already.
- It is the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda that runs moment-to-moment. It describes how our minds respond to a sensory input (arammana). It describes temporary “bhava” and “jati“ within a lifetime: “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime.” That is the first post in the section I recommended: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- The “Uppatti Paticca Samuppada” is a summary of how what happens over many lives leads to grasping a “bhava” and corresponding “jati” (at the cuti-patisandhi moment) according to all “kammic energies” (bhava energies) accumulated via innumerable Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda cycles over many past lives.
A mind becomes active only with an arammana. Most of the suttas explain the workings of the mind upon receiving an arammana. Those interested should search for “arammana” using the “Search” box on the top right and read some of them.
- Mind is all about responding to arammana.
- When we sleep or while unconscious, the mind is not active.
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I will copy and paste what I wrote in one of the comments above. Those interested should read it carefully, including the links.
1. “Bhava” is the kammic energy that can sustain an existence. “Bhava” is two types: (i) During a lifetime, one can get into a”temporary existence” (temporary bhava) where more kammic energy corresponding to that type of existence is accumulated. (ii) That accumulated “bhava energy” can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati.”
2. The primary mechanism of “bhava energy” formation is “namarupa formation.” This is where “nama” and “rupa” are combined by the mind, and kammic energy is produced in javana cittas. The critical steps are “avijja paccaya sankhara” through “vinnana paccaya namarupa.”
- However, one does not automatically start “avijja paccaya sankhara.” It begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.” The attachment starts with the mind generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- That always happens within a lifetime via Idappaccayata PS. See “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- However, once attached to an arammana and getting to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind starts accumulating new kamma, beginning at the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step. See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details. I mentioned this post in another recent thread, but you don’t seem to have read it. See my comment on July 10, 2024 at 8:27 am in “Compilation of my thoughts.”
3. Accumulated kammic energy can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati,” as mentioned in #1 above. Sometimes, the “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda” process is used to explain it.
- However, grasping a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment also happens in an Idappaccayata PS process. That also begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.”
- However, in this case, once reaching the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind moves to the “bhava paccaya jati” step and grasps that new existence. In this case, there is no time to accumulate “more new kamma,” as in #2 above. Here, grasping a new existence also involves generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- Whether it is new kamma generation or grasping a new existence, a mind MUST attach to an arammana, and that is ALWAYS triggered by “distorted sanna.”
Paticca Samuppada is complex. It is not linear most of the time. However, it is stated linearly to explain the main concepts.
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Dosakkhayo wrote:
“From what I have learned in 50836, bhava in “bhava paccaya jati” is formed through the “vinnana paccaya namarupa” stage.
Is this the difference between the two?”
- I tried to explain that in my comment above. That is all I can do right now. If you take the time to read it carefully (including the links), you may be able to understand.
- As I wrote there, these concepts may not be easy to understand.
Think about the following. How long does it take a person to get a Ph.D. in nuclear physics or any area of science?
- A Ph.D. will take at least 25 to 30 years (starting in elementary school and proceeding through many stages), but that is in one specific field.
- Buddha Dhamma is much deeper than any area in science or modern science taken as a whole. Modern science only deals with matter. Buddha Dhamma, on the other hand, explains how matter is created by the mind! That is much harder.
However, fortunately, learning Buddha Dhamma is an entirely different process. Even a person without much formal education may be able to make progress. The issue is that it is easier for some people than others because they have done more work in previous lives (the concept of paramita.) Since we do not know how much of the paramita we have completed, we can only make the effort.
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It is impossible to do that in a single comment or even a long post. I would have done it if that was possible! One needs to keep reading and understanding concepts. I myself am learning, too. Buddha Dhamma is like the deep ocean; one can go deeper with more understanding. Once in a while, you come across a “breakthrough,” like the concept of “distorted sanna,” which opens up a new, life-changing view. That is what happened to me in 2023.
- Don’t try to understand everything in one session. You seem to stress yourself out by doing “marathon sessions.” That is unhealthy, meaning it could be stressful and may affect the physical body, too.
- Please take the time to re-read what I wrote above and the links. I don’t think you even read what I wrote above carefully (let alone the links) before responding!
- Try to understand the concepts, and avoid hanging onto every word I write. Sometimes, it is difficult to express ideas in words, and what I write in a particular sentence could be misinterpreted. (Of course, if I write something with apparent errors or contradictions, it is OK to point that out.) If you read a post in its entirety (and the links), you should be able to get the general idea.
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Dosakkhayo asked: “If “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “bhava paccaya jati” are separate and independent stages, how are they different?”
Two terms that are the hardest to understand in Paticca Samuppada are “namarupa formation” and the concept of “bhava.”
1. “Bhava” is the kammic energy that can sustain an existence. “Bhava” is two types: (i) During a lifetime, one can get into a”temporary existence” (temporary bhava) where more kammic energy corresponding to that type of existence is accumulated. (ii) That accumulated “bhava energy” can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati.”
2. The primary mechanism of “bhava energy” formation is “namarupa formation.” This is where “nama” and “rupa” are combined by the mind, and kammic energy is produced in javana cittas. The critical steps are “avijja paccaya sankhara” through “vinnana paccaya namarupa.”
- However, one does not automatically start “avijja paccaya sankhara.” It begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.” The attachment starts with the mind generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- That always happens within a lifetime via Idappaccayata PS. See “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- However, once attached to an arammana and getting to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind starts accumulating new kamma by starting at the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step. See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details. I mentioned this post in another recent thread, but you don’t seem to have read it. See my comment on July 10, 2024 at 8:27 am in “Compilation of my thoughts.”
3. Accumulated kammic energy can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati” as mentioned in #1 above. Sometimes the “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda” process is used to explain it.
- However, grasping a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment also happens in an Idappaccayata PS process. That also begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.”
- However, in this case, once reaching the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind moves to the “bhava paccaya jati” step and grasps that new existence. In this case, there is no time to accumulate “more new kamma,” as in #2 above. Here, grasping a new existence also involves generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- Whether it is new kamma generation or grasping a new existence, a mind MUST attach to an arammana, and that is ALWAYS triggered by “distorted sanna.”
Paticca Samuppada is complex. It is not linear most of the time. However, it is stated linearly to explain the main concepts.
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No. Akasa dhatu is in between things made of suddhatthaka.
- Akasa = space. All material things are in space. Akasa is infinite.
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Lang asked: “So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right?”
- Yes. I had not expressed this correctly in my initial response. I just revised it to make it clear.
- “samphassa-ja-vedana” arises due to “distorted sanna” for those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya.
Lang asked: “I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”
- Yes. You could say that. Anyone born with a human body will have the “kama sanna” common to all of us: Sugar or a nice meal tastes good, feces smells bad while a rose smells good, there are handsome men and beautiful women, etc.
