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I will say three things to consider:
1. Keeping the mind focused on the breath (or a water bowl, ball of clay, etc., as in mundane versions of kasina meditation) can stop it from wandering into sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts. The latter three things cause a mind to be agitated and stressful.
- Therefore, I agree that forcefully keeping the mind on a “neutral object” will stop the mind’s agitation and have a calming effect (Samatha.)
- If one lives a moral, simple life (i.e., abstain from akusala kamma over a long time) while simultaneously engaging in such mundane techniques (breath, kasina), one can even attain “mundane jhanas.”
- That is what ancient yogis did. They went deep into jungles (to be away from women and other sensual attractions), lived simple lives, and cultivated anariya jhana using the breath or mundane kasina techniques. So, they will be reborn in a Brahma realm and live a peaceful life there. But at the end of that lifetime, they will return to kama loka and can be reborn in the apayas. So, it is a temporary solution.
2. The above procedure cannot cultivate the wisdom (panna) necessary to attain any magga phala.
- I would love for anyone to explain how that could be possible.
3. Focusing the mind on examining Dhamma concepts will address both of the above issues. This is called “insight meditation” or Vipassanā.
- It will keep the mind away from sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts and help to calm it (Samatha).
- It will cultivate wisdom (panna) that will remove ingrained defilements (samyojana/anusaya) from the mind and lead to magga phala.
- With the cultivation of panna, one’s mind automatically abstains from akusala kamma. Thus, one may automatically enter Ariya jhana with this practice. Even in the absence of entering any jhana, one is certain to attain magga phala.
- However, the time taken will depend on each person. Do not expect quick results.
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The goal of a Buddhist is to attain magga phala and end the suffering in the rebirth process!
- Regarding #2, some say, “Do the breath meditation to calm the mind,” and then do Vipassanā.
- Of course, that will work if they understand how to do Vipassanā. But my observation (observing those who attend meditation retreats like Goenka-type) is that they never do real Vipassanā. Most of such programs lead to only Samatha. Does anyone know of someone who has attained a magga phala by attending such “meditation retreats”?
P.S. It is quite likely that anyone who translates “Ānāpānapabba” as “Section on Respiration” will not know how to do Vipassanā!
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“But I also believe that we cannot rule out observing the breath as a tool to gain insight.”
- OK. I have no more comments.
I see. Yes. That is a good point.
- However, we don’t understand how nature works in many situations.
- When Arahant Mahinda revived Buddha Dhamma in Sri Lanka, he wrote numerous “Sinhala Atthakatha” which are Commentaries (like Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga or even this website). However, all those disappeared during the “dark period” that probably started before Buddhaghosa came to Sri Lanka to write Visudhimagga. Even though the Tipitaka (or a significant portion of the Tipitaka) survived, those Sinhala Atthakatha completely disappeared. I have discussed some of it in “Incorrect Theravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline.”
- We do not know how the teachings will (i) go underground (like in the above case) for a while or (ii) disappear entirely at the end of Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sasana. This website or similar “Commentaries” will have no trace left in one of those two cases.
- Many civilizations seem to have disappeared due to natural events such as floods, a comet strike, etc. Scientists believe such a comet impact destroyed most of life on Earth about 60 million years ago when the dinosaurs were also wiped out. The last such “cataclysmic event” seems to have happened about 12,000 years ago: “Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.” This event may not have been as bad as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs.
- There is much evidence that there was an advanced civilization worldwide before that which built pyramids (not only in Egypt but in many parts of the world) and many other sophisticated structures that have survived. I discussed some of it in “Back to Builders of the Ancient Mysteries (BAM) – Full Movie, Documentary.
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Under #1: From your reference “Pāli Tipiṭaka – English Publication – Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta” I am quoting the following:
- At the beginning, “Ānāpānapabba” is translated as “Section on Respiration.” In that section, it says: “I am breathing in a deep breath.” Breathing out a deep breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a deep breath.” Breathing in a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing in a shallow breath.” Breathing out a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a shallow breath.”
- I don’t think we can take that translation seriously. What do you think?
You asked: “If kayanupassana is about controlling our actions, then why are there the sections on patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba in the same kayanupassana section?”
- That is a good question.
- The word “kaya” (“collection of parts”) can mean the physical body as well as the panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.”)
- However, in most suttas, by “kaya” the Buddha referred to PUK.
- As you pointed out, a small part of the Satipatthana Sutta is allocated to patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba (focused on the physical body.)
- As I have mentioned many times, a word can have several meanings, depending on the context. With practice, one can determine which meaning should be used in a given context.
You wrote (under #2): “In this sense, though the translation by “Pali Tipitaka” may have some errors, it is more consistent because the first 3: kaya, vedana, cittanupassana are all about observing only. I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this. Same goes for vedana and cittanupassana where you only observe and find out what it is.”
- Satipatthana is definitely not about just observing.
- It is about “being mindful” about how (i) the PUK arises, (ii) how vedana (and sanna) turn into “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana“, (iii) how citta (thoughts) involving raga, dosa, moha arise, and (iv) making connections to above with Paticca Samuppada, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. (Of course, it also involves controlling one’s actions, speech, and thoughts based on that understanding.)
- Those are kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, and dhammanupassana.
Under #3: “It seems strange for this to appear in the kayanupassana segment. If it is about thoughts then it should at least be in cittanupassana!”
- That verse involves “kaya” as panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) per the above.
- Here, “So sato va assasati, sato va passasati” can be taken as “Let good thoughts grow, and discard evil thoughts” only in a simple explanation.
- When I wrote those posts, I had not explained how PUK is initiated by sensory inputs. I have started explaining this in recent posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- I will start writing more posts on Satipatthana after completing that series of posts.
- Since vedana and citta are also included in PUK, kayanupassana actually includes how cittas arise with different types of vedana. As we know, PUK includes rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. This is a deeper aspect that I will write about later.
Under #4:
I have not discussed dhammanupassana specifically in that series of posts.
- However, my posts on Paticca Samuppada address most of those issues.
- What you quoted, ” And what, monks, is old age? If there is old age for all kinds of beings in whatever kind of existence, their getting frail and decrepit, the breaking [of their teeth], their becoming grey and wrinkled, the running down of their life span, the deterioration of their sense faculties – this, monks, is called old age” explains jati in Paticca Samuppada.
- I have discussed Paticca Samuppada in detail. See, for example, “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English” and “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
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I think the critical issue is in the following statement:
“1) Buddha’s intention was to deliver everything one needs to attain Nibbana to anyone. He would not teach the higher teaching to people who were not ready for them – it’d be a loss of time for both parties. Yet, Buddha declared that he shared with the Sangha all that he knew relevant to getting to the further shore. So, the Sangha got the full teachings, the texts, the keys to interpret the texts, and their meanings.”
The “the keys to interpret the texts” are in the Tipitaka. However, those “keys” are not apparent to anyone else but Ariyas.
- Once the last Sotapanna on Earth dies, that is the end of the current Buddha Sasana. All the books of the Tipitaka will still be there, but there will be no one who can use the “keys” to explain the key concepts.
- A good example is the current situation. Many deep concepts have been hidden for hundreds of years until Waharaka Thero (a “jati Sotapanna“) uncovered many such “keys.” He clarified many critical issues. Even now, most English texts have “Anapanasati” as “breath meditation” and “anicca” restricted to “impermanence.”
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Most of the other questions raised can be explained based on the above issue.
For example, the following comment “I do not understand how was not possible to preserve the patiniddesa. It is not like Buddha partake in developing an extense philosophy. .” does not make sense.
- What the Buddha taught was deeper than any philosophy. It is a “previously unknown worldview” that no mundane philosopher can come up with.
- Please read carefully today’s post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala.” I tried to explain this point there.
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Another statement of skywander: “I do not understand how was not possible to preserve the patiniddesa.”
- It is the same point as above. There are suttas with the patiniddesa explanations. However, that is not apparent to anyone without getting to Samma Ditthi (i.e., at least reaching the Sotapanna stage.)
- P.S. For example, if one starts with the wrong idea that “Anapanasati” is “breath meditation” then no matter how many suttas they read, they will NEVER make any progress. That is obvious because essentially all translators of suttas into English are still doing that. They have not understood the fundamentals! Many of them have translated suttas with niddesa and patiniddesa and have not been able to unlock the “keys” mentioned above.
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I don’t know whether there are questions under:
## all-day meditation”
However, meditation is NOT restricted to “formal meditation,” where one sits in one place and contemplates Dhamma concepts. That is one way and is essential. There is no way that one can engage in akusala during that time. Furthermore, it will help cultivate wisdom (panna), break samyojana, and reach magga phala.
- However, one should also be engaged in meditation all day while doing routine day-to-day activities. That means being mindful of whether one is engaging in akusala kamma. That is one meaning of “Anapanasati.” It is to be noted that there are many levels of akusala kamma. Some, like “killing and stealing,” are easy to catch.
- Even engaging in “excessive sense pleasures” is a lower level of akusala kamma. That may not lead to rebirth in the apayas (when done at lower levels) but will certainly keep one bound to kama loka. These subtle points will become apparent as one cultivates the path.
P.S. I see that Tobi has made some good comments.
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I needed to rewrite an old post to clarify a few critical points. So, this post will be postponed until next week.
I forgot to mention: Please don’t worry about correcting the ” <br />” propping up issue. I am not sure why that happens, but I can take care of it.
Please use a free word-processing program like Word or Google Docs to submit a lengthy comment like this one.
- I started correcting a few things, but I did not want to inadvertently change your meanings, so I stopped. In the future, please take the time to prepare a lengthy comment using a word processor. That will help me and others understand the questions and reply correctly.
I will read the comment and reply later. I hope others will comment in the meantime.
Thank you! Much merits!
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I think you meant to ask, ” Does this mean that one does not need to be listening to a discourse by a Noble Person (an Ariya) to attain the Sotapanna phala moment?“
- Yes. There is no need to be listening to an Ariya to attain the Sotapanna phala moment.
- The requirement is to learn from an Ariya and understand the “previously unknown teachings of a Buddha.”
- When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, who is either a dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.
- A dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī WILL attain the Sotapanna phala moment during that life. That can happen any time, anywhere, while contemplating what they have superficially understood.
- That is what happened to Ven. Cittahattha. He had learned from Ariyas while a bhikkhu and had attained the Sotapanna Anugami stage before he had disrobed for the last time. Then, he attained Sotapanna phala while returning to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the final time.
I had not made that clear in the following post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.” See #4 and #5 there, which I just revised to make this point clear.
- I think Gad commented on Ven. Cittahattha in another thread. I don’t remember which forum thread it was. The above was discussed there, but I had forgotten to update the above post.
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Of course. Even a Sotapanna may follow rituals they are used to unless it involves immoral deeds. It is likely that some practices did not make sense but were not immoral.
- I don’t know the details of what types of procedures were involved.
- But I think the sutta explains how to engage in Uposata correctly.
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Yes. I think it is important to have a separate post on it. I will try to make it the next post.
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“Uposata” is to dedicate a day once a week or once a month (usually a full Moon day) to try to live like an Arahant, i.e., to abstain from immoral deeds or even engage in “sensual/pleasurable activities,” including sex.
- This is a common practice in Asian Buddhist countries. People spend the whole day in a temple, although it can also be done at home.
Such a practice existed even before Prince Siddhartha attained Buddhahood. It is stated that Queen Mahamaya Devi (Prince Siddhartha’s mother) regularly practiced it.
- It is clear that such a practice originated with Buddha Kassapa, the Buddha before Buddha Gotama.
- Just like concepts like kamma/kamma vipaka also propagated with mundane meanings, that practice was performed with different variations/adoptions by various groups when Prince Siddhartha was born. For example, “nigaṇṭhuposatho” was the practice/rituals adopted by the Jains (followers of Nigaṇṭanathaputta) at that time.
- Apparently, Lady Visākhā followed an incorrect version, and the Buddha explained to her the correct way to practice Uposata in this sutta.
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The sutta doesn’t say not to teach Dhamma; it just says to avoid useless debates.
The English translation is good. There are no “deep concepts” here, and it is straightforward.
“Bhikkhus, don’t get into arguments, such as:
“You don’t understand this teaching and training. I understand this teaching and training. What, you understand this teaching and training? You’re practicing wrong. I’m practicing right. I stay on topic, you don’t. You said last what you should have said first. You said first what you should have said last. What you’ve thought so much about has been disproved. Your doctrine is refuted. Go on, save your doctrine! You’re trapped; get yourself out of this—if you can!”
- Those types of “debates” are the ones to avoid.
- Just saying, “Your argument is wrong. Mine is correct,” etc., is not beneficial. You only need to present your arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. There is no need to engage in debates.
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Taryal: “Or could it be that the Buddha was referring to visible expansions of the nearest stars?”
- Yes. It is possible that the Buddha was referring to visible expansions of a nearest star that eventually “blew up” as a supernova.
- The Sun’s mass is too small to become a supernova, but it can become a “red giant,” according to modern science.
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Taryal: “It is interesting because there is a Hindu text which also refers to the seven suns…”
- Many concepts in Vedic literature, including karma (for kamma) got into the Vedas from Buddha Kassapa, who was on Earth before Buddha Gotama. I briefly discussed that in #15 and #16 in “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“ which I will quote below.
“15. In the Vepullapabbatta Sutta (SN 15.20), the Buddha provides the names of the three Buddhas on this Earth (in this mahā kappa) before him: Kakusandha, Koṇāgama, and Kassapa. He describes how a particular mountain had three different names and heights during those Buddha’s times.
- The point here is that those Buddhas had been on this Earth at times far apart from each other. Considering that the age of the Earth is about 4.5 billion years, it is reasonable to assume that they were about a billion years apart.
- One piece of evidence in the Tipiṭaka for material from previous Buddhas transmitted via Vedic teachings (with superficial meanings) is given in the post, “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..” (see #8 there).
16. By the way, the existence of Buddha Kassapa before the Buddha Gōtama helps explain many questions about the connection between Vedic terms and Buddhist terms. Some examples are kamma (karma), Bhikkhu (Bhikshu), paññā (pragnā), jhāna (dhyāna), Nibbāna (Nirvāna), and so on.
- After the end of the Kassapa Buddha Sāsana, his teachings were transmitted as Vedic teachings without deeper meanings. I will need to write some posts just on this issue.
- A good example is the Ānāpāna bhāvanā, which got transmitted as “breath meditation.”
- After re-gaining Buddha Kassapa’s interpretation during our Buddha’s time, the Vedic description has been retaken hold by the current time. The correct version will be fully restored in the coming years. But, of course, it will again disappear to be rediscovered by the Maitreya Buddha in the future.”
On that, also see #8 of “Arogya Parama Labha..” which I quote below:
8. It is interesting to note that this verse was a popular one among the Vedic brahmins of the day of the Buddha. In the Māgandhiya Sutta (MN 75), it is described how Māgandhiya brahmin tells the Buddha that his teacher also taught him the same verse. When the Buddha asked him to explain the meaning that his teacher taught him, Māgandhiya gave the same interpretation that was given in #1 above.
- The Buddha told Māgandhiya that this gāthā (verse) came to the Vedic literature from the previous Buddha (Buddha Kassapa), whose Buddha Sāsana had since disappeared: “Pubbakehesā, māgaṇḍiya, arahantehi sammāsambuddhehi gāthā bhāsitā.“
- (It is important to note that there had been three Buddhas before Buddha Gotama in this mahā kappa, and there will be another, Maithree Buddha, in the future after the present Buddha Sāsana disappears in about 2500 years).
- This is why only “conventional meanings” of pure Dhamma survive when Ariyā (Noble Persons) can correctly interpret the deep meanings in the suttā and verses like this are absent for a long time in this world. Either a Noble Person or a Buddha has to be born to bring back the true meanings.
- This is exactly what has happened during the past hundreds of years, where true meanings of many keywords like anicca, dukkha, anatta, Paṭicca Samuppāda, and Ānāpānasati bhāvanā, have been not known. See, “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Wrong Interpretations“.
I have pointed out more evidence in other posts. The following is from #7 of “Buddhahood Controversies – Introduction.”
“For example, “Brahmāyu Sutta (MN 91)” provides a detailed account of brahmin Brahmāyu, who was well-versed in the three Vedā (tiṇṇaṃ vedānaṃ pāragū). At the beginning of the sutta, brahmin Brahmāyu recites the qualities of a Buddha: ‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṃ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā’ti. Then he sends his pupil to the Gotama Buddha to check whether he has the “thirty-two marks of a great man (dvattiṃsamahāpurisalakkhaṇāni).” How would brahmin Brahmāyu know about the qualities of a Buddha? It had come down in Vedic teachings! It is good to read the English translation: “With Brahmāyu.”
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