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Siebe said, “I do not know for sure if the Budddha taught …”that one cannot and does not need to repay all one’s kammic (sansarik) debt to attain nibbana”.
See for example this lines:
“Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated“.” (END OF QUOTE)
I see that my copy and paste did not come out well. But I have given the referennce link.Here is the Pali version of the above verse from a sutta (Paṭhama Ssañcetanika Sutta, AN 10.217) that Siebe quoted:
“Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi¬saṃ¬ve¬ditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi. Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi¬saṃ¬ve¬ditvā duk¬khas¬san¬takiri¬yaṃ vadāmi.”The translation given by Siebe is NOT CORRECT. One has to be careful with translations as I keep saying. There is nowhere in the verse that says anything about TERMINATION OF KAMMA. Buddha says there, “ I do not say (na aham) that completed and accumulated kamma done via sancetana (defiled intentions) will not bring (appatisamveditva) vipaka and suffering in this life, paralowa, or in other (future) lives.”
In other words, as long as there are past kamma (unpaid), there is suffering to be had. But it DOES NOT say one has to get rid of all kamma to attain Nibbana. Even though an Arahant (like Angulimala) may have a lot of unpaid kamma left, he would not be reborn with a physical body to bring about those kamma vipaka. This is a VERY IMPORTANT point to understand.
Furthermore, this sutta also confirms what I said about dasa akusala being at the root of all bad kamma vipaka. That part of the sutta translation is correct (after the first several verses). Here is the English version of the sutta, that everyone should read:”217. Volitional (1)“.
Siebe said: “Regarding the suffering the Budddha talks about. He also talks about ending the bodily suffering. Maybe not in this live but in future lives by not grasping a new body again and ending the proces of rebirth.”
That is correct. There is absolutely no suffering upon Paribbana (death of an Arahant) because he/she in not reborn anywhere in the 31 realms of this world. But it is also important to understand that there is no MENTAL suffering (samphassa ja vedana) for a living Arahant; just bodily pains due to past kamma.By the way, I am planning to write a post on why Kamma is the root cause for bodily suffering. The other seven types mentioned in those three suttas that Siebe mentioned in this discussion, are not ROOT CAUSES, but really effects of past kamma that act as causes. It could take some time, since I am busy with many other things.
Lastly, I just saw the most recent comment by Akvan and agree with it. Akavan said: “However, I need to find a sutta reference to kamma being the root / primary cause. If anyone does come across something please let me know.”
There are many suttas: Kamma vibhanga suttas (2), Kamma Nidana sutta, Kamma suttas, etc. Probably Siebe can provide a long list.1. There is no doubt that breath meditation can calm the mind. What it does is to keep the mind focused on a neutral object: in this case the breath, but in kasina meditations it is the kasina object like a colored disk. Since those thoughts are devoid of greed and hate, if the focus is kept for extended times, the mind does calm down.
This technique had been perfected by ancient yogis and they had achieved even supernormal powers. But the problem is that it does not do anything to get rid of the avijja or ignorance about the true nature of this world or even to get rid of one’s bad gathi (habits and character qualities). Therefore, if a strong sense input comes, old bad gathi will be re-surfaced and that samadhi WILL BE broken. There are many stories about such yogis losing those supernormal powers by the sight of a sensual object.
I know it is hard to discard the ability to be able to get to a calm state of mind with breath mediation. But in the end it is no better than getting “high” with drugs or alcohol. It is a temporary solution to a deeper problem of suffering associated with the rebirth process. That is what Tobias was trying to explain with the statement, “The technique involves no contemplation and comprehension of the Tilakkhana which the Buddha revealed to the world. The question is how one can attain Nibbana without comprehension of the Tilakkhana?”.
Also, see the post: “A Buddhist or a Bhauddhaya?”2. Another point is that it is good idea to first figure out what is meant by key words like sankhara.
Chigstarrr said: “For example when a gross and unpleasant sensation arises, one has two choices: 1) To react with aversion, which in fact has the effect of intensifying the sensation or 2) To remain equanimous. That is to simply observe the sensation without valuing or devaluing it. This allows the sankaras to rise to the surface and be dissipated.”Sankhara are thoughts. They come and go. If the thoughts are on the breath, then there is less opportunity for greed or hateful thoughts to arise, and that is what makes the mind to calm down. The statement, “This allows the sankaras to rise to the surface and be dissipated.”, does not make any sense for explaining what happens. That is just a catch phrase.
But bad thoughts (apunnabhisankhara) are really bad vaci sankhara done by one’s conscious thoughts. They are a form of kamma and can bring bad kamma vipaka in the future. So, the permanent solution for the problem involves the mind to get rid of wrong views, habits, and to stay away from immoral deeds (dasa akusala). One aspect of this is discussed in “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra”
3.The real vipassana is about analyzing why such greedy or hateful thoughts arise, see their bad consequences and to get rid of them. Just by getting the mind off of such thoughts by focusing on breath is not a real solution. If bad consequences of hateful thoughts, for example, sink in the mind, then such thoughts will gradually cease to arise. That is the more permanent solution. This is what is explained in the “Maha Satipatthana Sutta”.
4. So, if one’s goal is to achieve temporary “a peace of mind”, then such meditation retreats will serve that purpose. But if one really needs to understand the key message of the Buddha, one first needs to understand what that is. This is explained in the post: “A Buddhist or a Bhauddhaya?” and in, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” among others.
Do good kamma (good actions by the body, speech, and mind) lead to good results? The answer is YES.
Bhikkhu Bodhi’s above translation in the post by Siebe above is 100% accurate.
This is why I emphasize the basics. At the very foundation of Buddha Dhamma is dasa akusala. That is the yard stick to be used to determine between good and bad or moral and immoral.
How is a kamma determined to be good or bad?
If a kamma involves any of the dasa akusala, then it is a bad or immoral kamma, and it will bring bad results.
There are three bad kamma done by the body, four by speech, and three by the mind. The most important one people tend to forget: micca ditthi.
If a kamma is done with micca ditthi, that is a bad or immoral kamma, and WILL bring in bad results.The opposites of the 10 types of micca ditthi are the “correct views” and WILL bring in good results within this world, i.e., good births in higher realms, health, wealth, beauty, etc.
There are two levels of mica ditthi. First one needs to remove the ten types of micca ditthi.
Then one can start on the Noble Eightfold Path AFTER learning about the deeper level of micca ditthi. That is to realize that it is a wrong view to believe that things in this world can bring long-term happiness. This second level of wrong views are dispelled when one comprehends Tilakkhana, the Three Characteristics of this world: anicca, dukkha, anatta.The strongest immoral deeds are done by the 10 types of micca ditthi. They inevitably lead to suffering and can lead to rebirth in the apayas.
One can attain Nibbana only by getting rid of the second level of micca ditthi, i.e, only by comprehending Tilakkhana. Thus ultimate and permanent happiness can be attained only by getting rid of second level of micca ditthi.
Both types of micca ditthi are discussed in the post:
Micca Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sotapanna Stage@Siebe regarding the working of kamma in the airline crash over Ukraine: This is related to the annantara samanantara paccaya (don’t be discouraged by the tittle):
Annantara and Samanantara PaccayaThe conditions became suitable for a strong kamma beeja (for each person accrued at possibly different times) to ripen at that time. The key is to realize that we all have billions and even trillions of kamma beeja piled up over our deep past; so, it is possible that there could be many people subjected to the same incident such as that plane crash. We also see that sometimes there are miraculous survivals.
Let me make some general comments that could be helpful (I am spending a lot of time on this issue, because I think it is an important topic for all; grasping basic concepts is critical in following Buddha Dhamma).
First, an important thing to realize is that the three types of kamma are done by Mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara:
Sankhāra – What It Really MeansThen, there are two ways to look at this problem of kamma and kamma vipaka.
1.One can try to analyze and figure out how vipaka arise with kamma (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions; but they all originate in the mind). But one may not able to figure out the finer details.
2. One can take Buddha’s word that bad vipaka arise due to bad (immoral) kamma, and good vipaka arise due to good kamma. This basically means one lives one’s life avoiding dasa akusala and cultivating kusala.The Buddha also said that kamma is one of five things that a normal human cannot fully comprehend. Instead one should try to get the basic ideas involved. More deeper analyses involve paticca samuppada (cause and effect) and patthana dhamma (conditions for causes to bring in effects). You can search for relevant posts using the “Search” box.
The best approach is to do both 1 and 2, but 2 must have the priority. This is because with 2, one can start feeling the benefits of a moral life (calmness of mind) and that also helps understand concepts in 1. This is discussed starting from basic levels in the Bhavana (Meditation) and Living Dhamma sections.
Furthermore, one can read the posts under this forum topic from the beginning and that should help too.
Finally, even though kamma is not deterministic, one can get trapped in kamma/kamma vipaka cycle (as we all have been so far), as long as we do not comprehend the real nature of this world (avijja). The only way to get out of this cycle is to attain Nibbana by comprehending Buddha Dhamma (by following the Noble Eightfold Path).
This vicious cycle of “vipāka” leading to “kammā” leading to more “vipāka” is the process that binds us to the sansara of endless rebirths, or perpetuate our “world” of suffering.
The Buddha described this as, “kammā vipākā vaddanti, vipākō kamma sambhavō, tasmā punabbhavō hōti, evan lokō pavattati“.That means, “kammā lead to vipāka, vipāka in turn lead to kammā and thus to rebirth (punabbhavō), and that is how the world (existence) is maintained”.
There “sambhava” is “san” + “bhava“, or “adding more existences”. Also, “lōka” is world, and “pavatta” means “maintain”. See:
How Are Paticca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?As I said above, without doing both 1 and 2 above, it is not possible to make progress.
“But kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. The mind is connected with the mano loka. Why is dhamma (e.g. kamma beeja) not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?”
For the same reason that sound is detected through the ears. Mana indriya in the brain can suffer damage (or degrade as one gets old) and one can have memory problems. Alzeimers is possibly due to mana indriya being degraded. This is why the physical body is called “vipaka kaya”. It is capable of imparting kamma vipaka in so many ways.
“How can an arupa brahma sense dhamma without mana indriya?”
It is likely that even rupavacara brahmas do not have a mane indriya and the hadaya vatthu can directly detect signals (dhamma) from the mano loka. In fact, for human gandhabbas it is the same: They don’t have eyes but can see, don’t have ears but can hear. They just cannot touch and taste. Regarding smell, though, it seems that gandhabbas can inhale aroma. I am not sure what that mechanism is. We will never be able to figure out all the finer details, unless somewhere in the Tipitaka.First of all, it seems if one hits the reply button, one can directly respond to a comment by that specific person (i.e., one’s comment will appear below that comment or that thread). The the reader need to scan to find the new comment (especially if there are newer threads at the bottom).
If one just keep typing in the default window, then the comment will appear at the very end of the discussion, as a new thread. Anyone will be able to see that as the latest comment, but then needs to refer to the comment that he/she is responding to.
I am going to try the second option here.
It seems that it would have been better if Tobias typed his response not as a reply to Johnny’s, but to mine (or just typed in the default window to start a new thread and referred to part of my comment so that a reader can trace it). It could take us some time to sort out the best way. One needs to decide which way is better.Tobias G. said, “Here I have my problem with the mana indriya. The mana indriya is part of the body or located inside the body. Why is it needed to sense kamma (beeja)? As I understand kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. Why is kamma beeja not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?
The same question applies to the mechanism of recalling memories from nama gotta. A brahma in arupa loka has only the hadaya vatthu, no mana indriya, right? If so, how can a brahma sense nama gotta or kamma beeja?”My response: Bodies of living beings in different realms are formed by the corresponding kammic energies to be able to impart various types of kamma vipaka suitable for those realms.
Since beings in kama loka are born there because of their cravings for pleasures through the five senses, their bodies are formed to be able to enjoy such pleasures, but then also subject to suffering through them. For example, one cannot enjoy sex without body touch (kaya indriya), and one cannot enjoy food without taste (jivha indriya), etc.
But each of those indriya can “go bad” either with age or as results of previous strong kamma (like getting cancer in the body or in the tongue, etc). That is one mechanism of delivering kamma vipaka to beings in the kama loka.
Rupavacara Brahmas are born there because they had lost their cravings (at least temporarily) for olarika (rough) sense pleasures. So, they do not need to sense body touch, smell, or taste and those indriya are missing; furthermore, they can receive rupa and sadda without physical senses.
Arupavacara brahmas have lost cravings (at least temporarily) for even those rupa and sadda. That is why they just have the hadaya vatthu.
These are discussed to some extent at:
Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya
Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical BodyYes, Johnny.
But in addition, our memories (nama gotta) are also recalled with this mechanism (via mana indriya). The ability to recall memories from past lives comes with abhinna powers. Of course, some children (usually under 10 years or so) have the ability to recall the previous life. Then that ability goes away when the mind gets cluttered with worldly desires.I just opened a new topic in the Abhidhamma forum, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi) – Grave Error on p. 164” to address Tobias G‘s comment on Dec 27, 2017.
Difference between moha and avijja:
Lobha,Dosa, Moha versus Raga, Patigha, Avijja@Siebe about sunburn:
If I did not know about you, I would think you are trying to pull my leg (that you are joking).
Sunburn depends on the amount of sunlight and how long you have been exposed. You have not mentioned those two critical factors. If you can be more specific about them, that would help. It looks like the in #2, the Sun was not that bright compared to #1.
Johnny Lim asked the following questions:
“Is the famous Schrodinger’s Cat experiment trying to depict this phenomenon of Quantum Superposition?”
It is a bit different. It involves the decay of a radioactive substance, even though some people try to make a connection.
“Are rupa kalapas a cocktail mixture of satara mahā bhūta?”
Yes. That is what is described in the post (specifically #2 and #12, among others).
“I know of some Theravadins who taught practitioners to discern rupa kalapas and the nature of satara mahā bhūta in order to discern ultimate materiality and mentality in order to fully penetrate the first Noble Truth…”
That is not possible. Rupa kalapas are formed within a billionth of a second and only a Buddha can discern such things.
In order to discern the ultimate materiality and mentality (or the nature of matter) one needs to have the yathabhuta nana (even that is not necessary if one comprehends the anicca nature, which CAN BE also be realized without knowing about the ’theory”). The new post on yathabhuta nana provides the theory.
Siebe said: “2. kamma-vipaka refers to what happens as a result or consequence of an intentional act. So, when i decide to take a shower, the nice feelings of the warm water are kamma-vipaka because they are a result of my decision to take a shower. The feelings do not arise from a good-kamma beeja, but they arise as a result of contact with nice warm water.”
Yes. It is a kamma vipaka (result of an action). Taking a warm shower leads to a nice feeling.
It is not necessary to connect all kamma to kamma beeja that last into future lives. Some actions have results right away, or during the current lifetime (called dittadhamma vedaniya kamma). For these, one could say the kamma beeja uses its power right away or at least by the end of the lifetime. Long lasting kamma beeja are there for other types of stronger kamma where results can appear in future lives.
That is correct.
I now see the root cause of your confusion.Kamma is action (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions). Kamma vipaka is what happens as a result of that action. Without understanding that one cannot even begin to comprehend laws of kamma, let alone other concepts in Buddha Dhamma.
What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?I am beginning to understand why intelligent people get confused about Buddha Dhamma. They do not have a good grasp of fundamentals.
Siebe said: “.When i decide to stand on one leg, and as a result feel pain, is this pain due to a bad kamma-beeja ripening, or has it just a physiological cause.”
I have explained in detail why the decision to stand on a leg is NOT a kamma vipaka. Please read above and let me know the points that you don’t agree with.
Let me try another way to explain this, since this is important to understand.
This is exactly what one needs to do in Satipatthana. In this particular case of moving a body part it is Kāyānupassanā. When a thought comes to the mind to stand on one leg, one needs to think about the consequences of that action. If it is a beneficial act then one needs to do it; if it is a detrimental act one should not (as I explained in detail above).This is no different than deciding to hit someone. When such a thought comes to the mind, one needs to realize that it is a bad bodily action.
Many people tend to focus on lobha and dosa as immoral. But moha is immoral too. The decision to carry out an act that one KNOWS will lead to suffering for oneself or others is immoral.
See the post on Kāyānupassanā for more details:
Maha Satipatthana SuttaP.S. As Akvan said, it is possible that the thought to stand on one leg MAY come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. But the ultimate decision is up to the individual. Otherwise, working of kamma will be deterministic and no one will be able to attain Nibbana.
Yes. I also agree with all three comments by Siebe, Vince, and Akvan above.
It is indeed not possible for any living being, including an Arahant, to fully comprehend the wisdom and capabilities of a Buddha. I discuss this a bit at:
Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-ConsistencyEven though an Arahant attains the same Nibbana as a Buddha, the capabilities of a Buddha can be matched only by another Buddha.
Siebe said: “We now tend to belief, based on craving and avijja and identifying with khandha’s, that we are ‘a human’, an “I”, a subject, a living being, a person, a man or woman, but that is only due to deeply ingrained habits.”
That is the essence of Buddha Dhamma. When one realizes that it is not fruitful (and also dangerous) to crave for things in this world, one’s various gathi will slowly dissipate. At the end, at Arahanthood, there will be no “gathi” left, except for harmless habits devoid of defilements. The dangers seen at the Anagami stage, for example, cannot even be fathomed at the Sotapanna stage (dangers of kama raga).
