April 3, 2018 at 10:21 am #14940EmbodiedSpectator
“Similarly, one who has developed disgraceful qualities of a dog may be acquire a “dog bhava“, and be born repeatedly a dog until that kammic energy is spent.”
i suppose that you’re referring to animal characteristics in general, that is: “irrationality” (…) genetically “programmed” behaviour…in this sense then all animals have disgraceful qualities… ?
April 3, 2018 at 5:13 pm #14943LalKeymaster
One is born a dog because one had “dog gati” and had done actions suitable for “a dog”. For example, dogs don’t pay attention to civility or “good behavior”. They pee and poop anywhere they like. They have sex with their family members, etc.
On the other hand, one with “deva gati” or “human gati” will be disciplined. They enjoy giving, helping others, doing good deeds.
Birth (jati) is within a given existence (bhava), and bhava is due to one’s gati. This is very important to understand.
It can be seen at various levels.
Those who are born in “good realms” (deva and brahma) had “good gati”. Those born in “bad realms” (peta, asura, animal, hell) had “bad gati”. Human realm is a “good realm”, but humans can CULTIVATE both good and bad gati. Then their next bhava is according to their cultivated gati.
April 4, 2018 at 12:54 pm #14967EmbodiedSpectator
“Birth (jati) is within a given existence (bhava), and bhava is due to one’s gati. This is very important to understand.” Yes…i’m reading, noting and meditating upon the whole PureDhamma pdf book (more than 1200 pages if i’m not wrong) as already said once.
“But not all animals are the same. Those “higher up” animals like monkeys can accumulate kamma than “lower ones” such as worms, and cats and dogs are somewhere in between”.
What about highly trained dogs? Or dolphins…? Are they accumulating good kamma ?
Example: an highly trained dog will not pee everywhere, at least that’s what a dog-trainer told me.
April 4, 2018 at 4:18 pm #14971LalKeymaster
OK. I see that I have failed to communicate something that is VERY important.
One is born a dog MOST LIKELY because one had cultivated “dog gati” as a HUMAN. In fact, most animals and other beings were born as humans (with very fine bodies) at the beginning of a “world cycle”. It is a very long, but interesting account.
I actually did not want to get into this discussion yet, because it involves some deep Dhamma. The key is that javana power of a citta of a human is MUCH STRONGER than that of a being in any of the lower realms. Therefore, the kammic power generated in a human mind is FAR HIGHER compared to the javana power of a citta of such being.
We can look at it this way. When a human does bad deeds suitable for a dog (say, by sexually misbehaving), that can lead to a “dog bhava”, where one can be born a dog for thousands of years (that means thousands of dog births). Whatever bad kamma that dog does during that time is not that powerful. But still they do accumulate, and that is why it is hard to get another “human birth” easily.
This is a deep subject. But in a way, this is the kind of thinking that gets one to seriously think about the dangers of the rebirth process, and to realize the “anicca nature”.
Embodied said: “What about highly trained dogs? Or dolphins…? Are they accumulating good kamma ?”
They can accumulate good kamma to some extent too. But again, those kammic powers are very low.
I had indeed stated in a post, “But not all animals are the same. Those “higher up” animals like monkeys can accumulate kamma than “lower ones” such as worms, and cats and dogs are somewhere in between”.
Here are some key factors:
– Any animal’s javana power is MUCH LOWER compared to a human.
– Javana power decreases even more from monkeys to dogs to worms to amoeba (to give some examples). Their ability to express emotions also go down in that order.
– That is why amoeba show hardly any sign of being conscious.
– As I said, this is a deep subject that requires lot of contemplation AND some knowledge of Abhidhamma can be helpful too.
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