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y not asked: “One thing where I am stuck is emotional attachments. What is more, I cannot see myself letting go of those. Is this a very subtle form of greed?”
The best way to resolve this is to understand the meanings of Pali words for “greed”. There are very different levels of “greed.”
– Lobha is the highest form of greed. One can do “apayagami deeds” with lobha.
– Strength from lobha reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– All three levels of raga will gradually decrease as one makes progress. This is where there will be many different levels of loss of cravings for sensory pleasures.
– In particular, kama raga (craving for sensory pleasures) will be significantly lessened at the Sakadagami stage, and disappear at the Anagami stage.
– Rupa raga (loosely, cravings for sights and sounds) and arupa raga disappear only at the Arahant stage.Therefore, there are different levels of “emotional attachments” corresponding to those levels of greed (loosely speaking.)
– For example, there is a Tipitaka account of a person who became an Anagami. He had four wives.
– After attaining the Anagami stage, he told the wives that he would consider them only as sisters and that they are free to find suitable husbands if they so desire. One wife left and married another man. The other wives told him that they will stay with him and consider him to be their older brother.
– The point is that he did not abandon the other three wives.
– But if he attained the Arahant stage, then it would be impossible to live with other women or even to stay a “layperson.” An Arahant needs to become a bhikkhu. An Arahant has no emotional attachments to ANYTHING in this world.The two comments you made are quite consistent.
– You seem to be making good progress, Lvalio!This is an important point.
– One CANNOT forcefully give up sensory pleasures (or anything else.)
– The “giving-up” just HAPPENS when one realizes the unfruitfulness/dangers in continuing with those activities.For example, it is very difficult for a drug addict to give up drugs, or an alcoholic to give up drinking.
– They will voluntarily give up those habits if they can see the bad consequences of those activities.It is a bit harder to see the hidden dangers of sensory pleasures.
– That is why a fish will never see the dangers in biting to a tasty worm on a hook. A fish does not the ability to comprehend the hidden dangers.
– A human, in the absence of a Buddha, would not even hear about the hidden dangers of sensory pleasures. Even when explained, it is not easy to grasp it. So, I am glad that you seem to have grasped it.Here is another way to see it.
– The akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and INVARIABLY ends with “jati paccaya jara, marana, ..” or “the whole mass of suffering.”
– Now, these sankhara are nothing but our thoughts, speech, and actions to get hold of things that we crave for. Those cravings are mostly for sensory pleasures.
– They INVARIABLY end up in suffering (via bad births)
– But since those ‘bad births” occur in future lives, it is hard to register that in mind.P.S.
I saw the comment by y not after posting the above.
– y not wrote, “I still turn on the tv for the news, for instance.”Yes. I do too.
– That is a very low form of sensory pleasure. Such habits continue until the Arahant stage.
– One first gives up (voluntarily) those activities related to hatred and excess greed.Cubibobi wrote, “A friend of mine told me just last week something like: “I listened to a talk of Thero X; I now forget what he was talking about, but I still remember his jokes.”
Yes. I see that all the time. Even though one can get a bigger audience that way, it defeats the whole purpose in two ways:
1. Keeping the audience entertained is what musicians, comedians, etc. do. That helps people relieve their daily stresses.
– But that helps those same people bound to “this world.”
– There is a sutta that says such “entertainers” are destined to apāyā.
– This is the same reason that the Buddha called Māra Devaputta “immoral” (pāpi Māra)2. Liking “this world” and “liking Nibbāna” are mutually exclusive.
– One CANNOT get out of this world until one realizes the dangers of remaining in this world.
– However, even after “seeing that” at the Sotapanna stage, most people have difficulty in overcoming kāma rāga or liking for sensual pleasures.
– So, it is not helpful to draw people to “entertainment” and “worldly pleasures”
– One should always try to contemplate the dangers of remaining in the rebirth process.Moreover, if one can climb over the “initial wall” by starting to see the dangers of the rebirth process, then one would get a more permanent “peace of mind”. That is “nirāmisa sukha” that is reached by overcoming the craving for sensory pleasures.
– That is the hardest part in practice for many people. See, “Nirāmisa Sukha”P.S. I just found the sutta mentioned in #1 above:
“Talaputa Sutta: To Talaputa the Actor”Christian wrote, “I think that Buddha may appeal to someone’s humor”
As far as I know, there is no evidence in the Tipitaka that such a case took place.
So, we should not just speculate.
– If there is evidence in the Tipitaka, then we can discuss it.People do not understand how serious the suffering in the rebirth process is. The Buddha said many times, not to waste a single moment. Those were his last words too.
Hello Grenier,
No problem. The point is that unless you start discussing a different topic, it is better to continue the discussion on the same thread.
Regarding your quotes by others, it would be good to see the original posts by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Sujato, Gombrich, etc.
It is not fair to them for me to comment specifically without seeing their posts.
– Would it be possible to provide the links to their comments?
– The way to do that is explained in the following post:
“How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question”If those instructions are not clear, you can email the links to me ([email protected]) and I can post them for you.
It is not a humorous story, Grenier.
– If you think it is humorous, that is fine too.The Buddha was just providing an analogy, and it is a small part of the whole sutta. It is about a serious matter.
Those who want to look into it, I would recommend the following translation:
“Discourse on the Parable of the Saw”By the way, please don’t open too many new topics. You could have replied to my post in the previous thread.
I don’t think the Buddha engaged in humor at all.
If you have a specific Tipitaka reference we can discuss.
Hello Lair,
In case you are not aware, there are TWO sets of videos with English subtitles.
1. The first set is listed in my post dated June 19, 2020 (see above). This set of videos is by Janith Fernando.
– The English (and Sinhala) texts for each video are provided under each video in pdf files (see above).
– By the way, this was done AFTER you and Seng Kiat helped create a document off of the screenshots for the first video. Now, Janith Fernando is sending me the texts and I post them under each video.
– I revised and expanded the first transcript that you and Seng Kiat made. I posted that document on June 18, 2020 (see above).2. There is a second set of videos by Waharaka TV. They are posted in my post dated July 10, 2020 (see above).
– These have English text only on the video screen.
– No text files are available for these videos.If it is still not clear, please send me an email. Thanks!
Added parts 2 and 3 of the Series to Waharaka TV transcriptions of Waharaka Thero’s Desanas listed in my post on July 10, 2020, above.
Hello Billy,
The verse that you refer to lists five types of macchariya: macchariya for residences, one’s caste, profit, health, and knowledge.
– One would be reluctant to share any of those with others. So, such a person would try to hide them from others.Macchariya is sort fo the opposite of issa or jealousy. In that case, one would envious of such possessions of others.
As I said, just like dosa is a manifestation of greed, those are also different manifestations of greed.
– But they are not pure greed (lobha).When avijja and tanha are removed, lobha, dosa, and all other associated cetasika would not arise.
By the way, raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) are lower levels of lobha.
– See, “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā”The following post is from Billy:
Hi Lal, Thank you very much for your answer.
I read another meaning of Macchariya that means selfishness I want to know if selfishness is the meaning of Macchariya? Because this meaning will make people think that Macchariya is in the Lobha team.
My friend also sent me a link to the Pali Mahāniddeso jarāsuttaniddeso page
She told me to see {206.1}She asked me why the Lord Buddha taught that Macchariya is the same group as Lobha.
But after I read your answer in this post, I immediately believed that your answer was correct, but I still didn’t understand much. I would like to thank you once again for writing the answer as well.Here are some things to think about.
1. Mōha (delusion); Ahirika (shamelessness); Anottapa (fearlessness in wrong); uddhacca (restlessness or agitation) arise in ALL akusala cittas.
2. Only lobha or dosa can arise in a given akusala citta. Both CANNOT arise together.
3. Of course, dosa (or hatred/anger) arises when one does not get one’s desire fulfilled. That desire/carving arise due to lobha. Therefore, lobha and dosa are connected in a way, even though they cannot arise together.
The following are directly related to your question:
4. Out of 12 akusala cittas, lobha arises in EIGHT types (lobha-rooted cittas). (see p. 32 of Ref.1 below).
– Lobha (greed) arises ONLY in those 8 cittas. (see p. 95 of Ref.1 below).5. There are only TWO Dosa-rooted akusala cittas. (see p. 36 of Ref.1 below).
– Dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca can arise ONLY in those two types of cittas. (see p. 95 of Ref.1 below).
– Note that dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are listed in English as hatred, envy, avarice, and worry in Ref. 1.Ref.1: “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi”
The page numbers quoted above are the page numbers indicated on each page of Ref. 1.
The main point is the following.
– Issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are not “pure greed.”
– Just like dosa, they arise as a by-product of greed.
– I looked up the standard definition of avarice. It says, “extreme greed for wealth or material gain.” That is not the meaning of macchariya. Macchariya means when someone who has a lot of wealth tries to hide it from others, due to his fear that he may have to it share his wealth with others.
– Issa is jealousy.
– So, we can see that all four cetasika of dosa, issa, macchariya, and kukkucca are not PURE GREED. They are all byproducts of greed (lobha). They can arise ONLY in those two types of cittas in #5 above.The following post is from Billy:
Hi Lal
Really glad to hear from you.
Here this is my reply that disappeared.(captured from Abhidhamma book and web)
Just as I read that book in the Thai translation, I responded a little late because I had to search for an English translation that has the same meaning as Thai.
Abhidhammattha Sangaha in the Abhidhamma schools has been teaching for many decades, which taught that “Macchariya is cetasika, one of the Dosa team because it arises with Dosa citta.” Even the English translation teaches this way too.
But I feel it is wrong Because the opposite of Macchariya is Caga, one of Ariyadhana. I feel that Macchariya is cetasika, one of the Lobha team, and arise with Lobha citta + Miccha ditthi because the one who can completely cut Macchariya is Sotapanna puggala. But I didn’t find that Abhidhamma school would teach like this And the professors here often look at those who do not agree with the books of the Abhidhamma School Is the bad people that destroy Buddha dhamma, so I can only keep in mind until today.
I’ve been following your online writing for four years, but I’m not good at English (100%Thai). I have to use Google Translate every time to write, but I can read and understand the meaning of English immediately (It’s very strange).
Hello Billy!
You asked, “I was wondering why in this book it was written Macchariya cetasika coupled with Dosa citta.
If Macchariya cetasika is extreme greed, why isn’t it coupled with Lobha citta?”Could you quote the actual verse in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha?
– Or, you could just give me the page number so that I can look it up.
