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There are two aspects to the First Noble Truth.
1. There is hidden suffering in attaching to worldly things. An average human thinks highly of kama assada or sensory pleasures. But because of their tendency to do “whatever it takes” to fulfill sensory desires, average humans are tempted to do immoral things.
– Some people think they will not do immoral things. But that is only because they have not been subjected to high-enough temptation.2. Because of the above, average humans inevitably are reborn in the four realms at some point in the future. Suffering in those realms is worse than the suffering endured by ANY human.
That is one version of the “previously unheard Dhamma” of the Buddha.
– Even though they may get a temporary sensory satisfaction by “somehow fulfilling those desires” they pay for that when they are reborn in the apayas.A good analogy is a fish biting a tasty bait. There is a momentary pleasure (when seeing the tasty bait), followed by unbearable suffering.
– But unlike in that case, suffering in the rebirth process is not immediate.I just revised the post in question with an update on recent experiments:
“Neuroscience says there is no Free Will? – That is a Misinterpretation!”
This post is related to the new post published today:
“Mind Is Not in the Brain“It helps to first clarify exactly where kammic effects could manifest.
We are talking about committing murder.
For the kamma of taking a life to be “complete”, the following four steps need to be completed: there must be a living being, one must know that it is alive and one must have the intention to kill that being, one plans and carries out the necessary actions to kill, and finally, the living being ends up dead.
-If all necessary steps are completed, then it is called a kammā patha. That will bring the full kammic force of taking a life.
-The more parts completed, the greater the effect.C would not be involved in the activities of Group A if they took place.
– So, C would not be responsible for any of the four steps, except for the last step. It is possible that C could have prevented those murders. Of course, since C would not be involved in the killings in any way, the effect could be less for that step.The more serious issue could be the issue of compassion. C could prevent a large loss of life by exposing the plot.
– If C did not warn, and if a lot of people got killed, that could haunt C for a long time.It is not easy to resolve the kammic consequences of complex cases like this.
Unless this is a real issue, it is not even worth to contemplate too much on “theoretical” cases like this one.
y not wrote: “And if so, that will be the work of Dhammata in some way.”
Yes. That is why it is said that “Dhamma will protect and guide those who abide by Dhamma”.
– To “abide by Dhamma” one needs to understand it.If one starts TRULY COMPREHSNDING Dhamma (i.e., Tilakkhana or the unfruitfulness of this world or the First Noble Truth on suffering), then that is the beginning of the Noble Path.
– Then one is guaranteed to get to the Sotapanna phala moment.The following post is by Lvalio (Lair):
Lal Said: “Here is another key point:
Listening is not required to attain the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage.
It is also clear that a Sotapanna Anugami is also freed from the apāyās. See, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās”
P.S. In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is guaranteed to attain the Sotapanna stage”.Now, if one attains the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage it´s clear to me that soon or later he(she) will attain the Sotapana Stage. So I think that the most important thing is not to read or listen but learn the Dhamma, understanding the Dhamma…
That´s what I think.
Lair
Yes. It is possible that a gandhabba may not have one or more pasada rupa (usually one) missing.
– Yes. One could be born blind and deaf. But that is very rare.So, if the cakkhu pasada rupa is missing, that would be the case of a person born blind (jati andha).
– However, some are born without the ability to see, even if the cakkhu pasada rupa is there. If there is something wrong with the optical nerve or the visual cortex, that would of course lead to blindness. But, if those brain circuits can be repaired in some way, they would be able to see again.
– If the cakkhu pasada is missing, then nothing can bring sight to that person.Yes. My statement there could have been worded with more explanation.
– By the way, firewns is referring to #4 of my previous reply.So, let me state the steps in the correct order in what happens when a baby is conceived in a womb.
1. First, a gandhabba (mental boy) arises when a new bhava is grasped. For example, if a Deva dies and becomes a human, a human gandhabba arises at that moment.
2. Then that gandhabba waits for a suitable womb. When one becomes available, the gandhabba is pulled into that womb by kammic energy.
3. That gandhabba has the blueprint for the vital parts of a new human body (for example, if one is to be born blind, then it would not have the cakkhu pasada rupa). However, other physical characteristics (body color and even body shapes) come from the zygote produced by the two parents.
“Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception”
– That is what I referred to there. The “nama” part comes from the gandhabba and some parts of the “rupa” comes from the zygote.
– In that process, “vinnana paccaya namarupa” step involves “patisandhi vinnana” which is essentially gandhabba. It gives rise to the seed of the physical body of a new human (namarupa” there).
– This is why some terms may have different meanings in different contexts.4. In Idapaccaya PS, “namarupa” refers to “mental images” that arise while thinking about a kammic action: “avijja paccaya sankhara”,.. to “vinnana paccaya namarupa”.
So, one needs to spend some time and figure out what happens. It is not possible to mechanically put in definitions.
You wrote: “However, hadaya vatthu would have to be formed when the gandhabba is formed, as it is part of the mental body.”
– Yes. That is correct.
– But the baby’s physical body needs to build the physical eyes, ears, etc to be able to “sense the external world” as we are discussing in the new series:
“Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach”So, I hope the answers to the other questions are clear now.
– If not, please feel free to ask.To emphasize, terms of the PS processes (Uppatti and Idapaccaya) can have very different meanings. The twp processes are discussed separately, for example, in:
“Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”
“Nāmarūpa Paccayā Salāyatana”Hello Simsapa!
You asked: “How can I verify the truth of the realms and rebirth in my current state? There seems to be no way to do that. If I investigate it, I say “I cannot confirm or deny it”.
Yes. That is an issue that needs to be resolved BEFORE one can attempt to get to the Sotapanna stage.
Look at it this way.
– Sotapanna stage makes one free of future rebirths in the four “bad realms” or the apayas.Why would one want to get to the Sotapanna stage, if one does not believe that it is possible to be reborn in such realms?
– If one cannot “verify the truth of the realms and rebirth“, why would one worry about rebirth in the apayas (i.e., try to attain the Sotapanna stage)?I hope you can see what I am saying. If there is no problem to be solved, how can one strive to solve the problem?
So, I would recommend spending some time looking into the issue of rebirth.
– Here is a key post on the evidence for rebirth:
“Evidence for Rebirth”I do understand that most people in Western societies are not familiar with the concept of rebirth. However, that is changing, because there is a lot of evidence emerging, and scientists and philosophers are beginning to take it seriously. That is why I included a recent conference on the subject at the beginning of the post.
The following post is by firewns:
Lal,
You wrote in #4: ‘In the uppati PS, namarupa is the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote to create the “seed” for the new human with a physical body’ and ‘Hadaya vatthu is created at the “bhava paccaya jati” step in the uppatti PS’.
However, hadaya vatthu would have to be formed when the gandhabba is formed, as it is part of the mental body. Furthermore, if the bhava stage precedes the jati stage, then before the being is born, it should exist as a gandhaba in the paraloka waiting for a suitable womb to merge with a suitable zygote.
1) Thus would it not follow that the hadaya vatthu would have been created before the jati step?
2) In your post on ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa’, what is ‘chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ’ which you mentioned in #8 related to ‘nama paccaya chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ’?
Thank you very much in advance for your reply.
Firewns questions:
1. For this question and for some of the following questions, we need to remember that PS does not always proceed linearly.
– You are quite right. Upadana involves vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara as well. This is explained in, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna”2. It is best to think of vinnana as the mindset. With that mindset, one creates energies for future existence (bhava).
– That bhava could be temporary in this life. For example, if one drinks too much, one can make an “animal bhava” and be born in it in this life itself.
– If that person keeps engaging in that activity regularly, that bhava energy (kammic energy) can become strong and could lead to rebirth as an animal.3. Namarupa are distinct from jati.
– Namarupa arise in the mind. An alcoholic can visualize alcohol bottles, party scenes, getting drunk with friends, etc. All those are namarupa.
– Jati is being born in a certain state, as in #2 above.4. In the uppati PS, namarupa is the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote to create the “seed” for the new human with a physical body.
– After the baby grows and starts getting attached to “things in this world” the indriya will become ayatana.
– Hadaya vatthu is created at the “bhava paccaya jati” step in the uppati PS.
– Change of indriya to ayatana happens when one gets attached to something. An Arahant has indriya that NEVER become ayatana.5. In the realm of Brahmas with no consciousness (asanna realm), they have hadaya vatthu, but kammic energy prevents any arammana coming to the mind.
– Without arammana coming in, no citta can arise.
– Kammic energy maintains a fine rupa until the end of that kammic energy. It is as if one is absent from the world during all that time.Yes. I thought it would be refreshing to present it in a different way.
“Is this one way to distinguish life and inert matter? i.e. rupa created solely from kammic energy is life, and the rest is the inert matter?”
EVERYTHING has its origins in kammic energy (via Paticca Samuppada).
– However, it is not necessary to focus on that right now.
– The critical point is that ONLY kammic energy can create those six units of hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa.“These 6 entities, plus whatever else created by kammic energy only, is life.
The rest is inert matter.”Yes. That is correct.
– In addition to those six entities, iithi bhava, purisa bhava rupa and jivitindriya rupa (#14, #15, #17 in the following Table) are created ONLY by kammic energy.
“Rupa (Material Form) – Table”Thank you, Zapper.
– Yes. I needed to update the lifetimes in the post, “Pathama Metta Sutta”1. I have corrected the lifetimes there per that sutta.
2. Now, it appears that the lifetimes quoted in that sutta for the Abhassara and Subhkinha realms (2 and 4 kappa) are different from those in the post, “31 Realms of Existence” (8 and 64 kappa)
3. In several other references, he lifetimes match those in the post, “31 Realms of Existence”
– One reference is, Section 6.2. Āyuppamāṇa in the vibhaṅga:
“Dhammahadaya vibhaṅga”4. I think the resolution is the following.
The Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125) discusses the rebirths in Brahma realms that result from cultivation of the first, second, third, and fourth jhana.
– But each jhana corresponds to several Brahma realms, depending on the “strength” of the jhana.
– In particular, the second and third jhanas correspond to three realms each (based on the strength of the jhana being low, medium, and high).
– Other references give lifetimes for EACH of those realms. But the Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125) gives just one lifetime.5 You can see the division of each jhana to several realms in, “The Thirty-one Planes of Existence”
By the way, the lifetimes that you quoted are the old ones that appeared in my posts BEFORE revisions.
On August 21, 2020, at 6:00 pm, Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
I checked the updated by Seng Kiat Ng , and for my references :
*”What Reincarnates?” it is on page 831
*”Only Gati…” on page 833
I will read again Bhikkhu Bodhi and A sketch of the Buddha’s life, by Thanissaro.
Merci, GrenierOn August 21, 2020, at 3:18 pm, Lal posted:
Hello Grenier. The following numbers refer to your post above.
1. I am not sure which version of the eBook that you referred to. It could be an old version.
– The eBook, “Pure Dhamma: A quest to recover Buddha’s true teachings” is updated each week by Seng Kiat Ng. You can get the newest version at,
“Pure Dhamma Essays in Book Format”Can you check and see whether that statement is there in the post at the website:
“What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream”
– Please check the post and let me know if you find that statement there.In the future, please check the post on the website and refer to the bullet # there.
2. It does not really matter which dictionary you refer to. If that meaning is not compatible with the Tipitaka, it needs to be rejected.
– However, that decision is up to each individual. I have given my reasons for rejecting that translation of the word “gati.”3. The “teachers” that you refer to (Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Gosala, Ajita Kesakambala, Pakudha Kaccayana, and Sanjaya Belatthaputta) were contemporaries of the Buddha.
– They had teachings that were OPPOSED TO the teachings of the Buddha.
– The Buddha had shown their teachings to be wrong and by the time of Buddha’s Parinibbana (death), most of those wrong teachings had been discarded by society.This is why I asked you at the beginning what kind of exposure you have had to Buddha Dhamma.
– So, your confusion in some of these cases seems to be reasonable. But you do need to read/listen to some background material.
– Again, I recommend finishing the lecture set by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
– Following is another reference that may be useful:
“A Sketch of the Buddha’s Life“
