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y not wrote: “If one admits to the reality of kamma and kamma vipaka and to opapatika births, including the apayas especially, is this not an indication of having seen, to some extent at least, the dangers in the rebirth process, and therefore has right view there? ”
Yes. That is why the Buddha said there are two types of Samma Ditthi.
– What you say in the above statement is getting to the first (mundane) version of Samma Ditthi.That DOES NOT remove the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (embedded in Tilakkhana) that says even rebirths in the “good realms” are NOT the solution.
– The higher level of Samma Ditthi comes from that understanding.But of course, living a moral life, embedded in the mundane Samma Ditthi. is a critical first step.
As I explained to you in my email this morning, it is a concept that cannot be explained even in a single post. Please refer to what I recommended if you like to learn about it.
After you go through at least some of the Bhikkhu Bodhi’s lectures AND have read some of the posts that I recommended, you can start reading the following section on “Stream Entry”:
“Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna”Of course, if you like, you can start reading that section on the Sotapanna Stage now.
– Since I have no idea about your background, you may well be able to comprehend that material now.
– But if you don’t have that background, it may make more sense after you read some more basic concepts.In summary, what I mean by ”Stream Entry” is described in the posts at, “Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna“
To complete my explanation above:
Moha has many levels too. It starts from a totally-covered mind that does not believe that kamma have vipaka, the validity of the rebirth process, etc.
– When one has removed the ten types of wrong views, one has avijja. That means one does not realize the unfruitfulness of the rebirth process AND the dangers.
– Then at the “Stream Entry” or the Sotapanna stage, one starts comprehending the Four Noble Truths or Tilakkhana.
– Then avijja is removed in four stages of Nibbana, culminating at the Arahant stage.y not wrote: “However, it is possible for anger to be independent of hatred.”
Of course. There are many levels of dosa ranging from hatred (high end) to anger to just annoyance.
– Hatred is where one is capable of even murder. With anger one may verbally abuse or even hit. Annoyance (patigha) is lower.In the same way, there are many levels of lobha ranging from extreme greed (where one may do immoral things like rape), to kama raga (craving for sensory pleasures), to rupa raga (just to see/hear), to arupa raga (just the desire to live in this world).
You could write it that way too, Tobias.
– But dislike has origins in liking.Anicca nature comes from not getting what one craves or likes, i.e., icca (or iccha).
We attach to “things” or “situations” with anger (or annoyance) OR ignorance too. That is the true meaning of tanha: “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance”
One may get annoyed with a fly (some can bite too!) because of its persistence.
– So, one may actually “hate the fly” for being annoying!People also get annoyed for no apparent reason too. That is due to avijja.
– Someone may just “do not like” another person (a total stranger), for no apparent reason.
– It works the other way too. Some “fall in love” at first sight!Yes. I did not quite have it worded right.
Just revised that sentence to:
“Pancupādānakkhandhā are based on past experiences that we liked.”Thanks, Tobias!
Hello Grenier,
Your quote of Bodhiketu merits some discussion. He says, “The Western Buddhist Order has been going long enough now for there to be many of us who have practiced sincerely and effectively for 20,30 and even 40 years. So are there Stream Entrants in the Order? If there are none, one could be forgiven for harbouring doubts.”
1. The key is to figure out what he understands by the “Stream Entry” or the Sotapanna stage.
– Did you see his idea of “Stream Entry” or how to get there? What did he expect to experience or gain once he got there? Apparently, he is discouraged by not being able to get there. But I am not sure he even KNOWS what “Stream Entry” means.2. Have you thought about what you expect from studying Buddha Dhamma?
I would like to get some feedback on one or both of the above issues before I can respond.
Cubibobi: “When I brought up rebirth, this “Buddhist” launched right into a vehement denial of a human being reborn as an animal, claiming how unscientific that was.”
Science has undoubtedly made a lot of progress regarding INERT MATTER.
– But it has made ZERO progress about the mind, as I pointed out in the new post: “Theories of Our World – Scientific Overview”The following is a link to the lecture set by Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned by Grenier:
“Bhikkhu Bodhi – 1 – The Buddha”– I watched a couple of lectures just to make sure.
– It is a great series of lectures for a beginner. It explains how to get to the MUNDANE eightfold path.
– Of course, Bhikkhu Bodhi, like many learned bhikkhus of today, still translates anicca and anatta as “impermanence” and “no-self.” I DO NOT recommend his interpretations when he gets to such deeper issues.
– Therefore, this series of lectures could ONLY be used as introductory material.I was thinking a bit more about the above issue.
It is a big problem. People try to mold Buddha Dhamma to their own world views.
– In particular, secular Buddhists (Google the term and read about it), do not believe in rebirth. So, they have their own version of “Buddhism.”
– Some others are scared of “extinction” at Nibbana. That is because they do not understand that there is no “soul-type” entity. Life is a series of “causes and effects”. Over long times that leads to much more suffering than any temporary happiness.All those are wrong views. One is not released from suffering as long as one has wrong views.
The only thing I (or anyone else) can do is to present the teachings of the Buddha in its original form. Hopefully, at least some people will understand.
– That is why I recently started a new series of posts to look at Buddha Dhamma from a more basic and fundamental level:
“Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach“Yes. I do.
It has to do with the background that one is brought up.
– Anyone can understand Buddha Dhamma IF they put their mind to it. The following are general statements based on my observations.
– Most Westerners are brought up with the idea of a Creator God. So, understanding the intricacies of Buddha Dhamma is not easy. I see that many are struggling with the concept of rebirth. Even worse, the idea of the possibility of rebirth in the animal realm could be disturbing too. In many religions, animals are supposed to be created by God for human consumption.
– Furthermore, they also face a lot of confusion because there are many versions of the Buddha Dhamma. So, one has to go through a lot of “stuff” out there, most of which is wrong. But how would one figure that out without looking at ALL that is out there?Hello Grenier,
I did a Google search and found the following article: “Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond,by Bodhiketu”
I had not heard about Bodhiketu and I briefly read through the above article.
– I don’t think he has a good understanding of Buddha Dhamma.
– That is the case with many. They try to interpret Buddha Dhamma in their own way.If I start to comment on all those different people’s writings, I will have no time left to do anything useful.
Cubibobi wrote: “In my culture, when someone young turns toward Dhamma, it tends to make someone in the family nervous (often times a parent).”
Yes. That is quite common.
– I guess those parents do not comprehend the suffering in the rebirth process.
– Even at the time of the Buddha, many were concerned about too many young people becoming bhikkhus.That is why it is hard for many people to embrace the true Dhamma.
– They just want to live a “happy life”, do meritorious deeds, and get rebirth in a Deva realm.
– In fact, that is exactly what many Buddhists wish for, unfortunately.
– They do not realize that all those “happy lives” INVARIABLY end up leading to rebirth in the apayas.As for proceeding on the Path, one will know what to do when the time comes. Each person is different.
– For example, Gatikara became an Anagami. He did not become a bhikkhu because he wanted to take care of his aging parents. Another bhikkhu at the time of the Buddha saw that his parents were going hungry. He started offering part of his meals that receives to his parents and the Buddha approved that.
– I personally know someone in Sri Lanka, who became a bhikkhu recently. He was an engineer and had a wife and two children. He worked overtime for a while to make sure he left enough money for his family before becoming a bhikkhu.Let me put this in a bit different way.
We are bound to this world (i.e., to the rebirth process) with ten “mental tethers” or “samyojana”. That can be compared to a dog tethered to a pole with ten chains.
The first three tethers are broken at the Sotapanna stage: Sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa.
– All three are about WRONG VIEWS. Thus they are tethers that are PRIMARILY related to moha.
– However, when those three tethers are broken, the other seven also become WEAKENED.Thus, at the Sotapanna stage, lobha is reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa, raga, arupa raga), and dosa is reduced to patigha. The other three samyojana (mana uddacca, avijja), directly related to moha reduce too.
– Therefore, at the Sotapanna stage, one would not have extreme greed or extreme anger (hate).
– But HOW MUCH kama raga and patigha that one may still have, is dependent on the person.
– Some people may lose a lot and could be very close to Sakadagami or even Anagami stage. Others may be far away from even the Sakadagami stage.That is why we see people with a wide range of gati (character) at the Sotapanna stage.
– Ven Ananda was a Sotapanna at the Parinibbana of the Buddha. But obviously, he was very much at a different “level” compared to Sarakani (who was unable to give up his drinking habit) or the woman who attained the Sotapanna stage at age seven and eloped with a hunter.
– The latter two had just barely reduced lobha to kama raga. They did not have the apayagami lobha level, but still had strong levels of kama raga.
– But of course, all three had “seen” the dangers of kama raga and patigha and the other samyojana.This is also why it is impossible for anyone else to decide whether one is a Sotapanna. Only that person would know. Even that person may not be certain until life experiences confirm that conclusion.
Other than giving an overview, I cannot be more specific, y not.
I explained that below the Angamai stage, it depends very much on each person.
– Anagami and Arahant stages are much more clearcut.The only other thing I can say is that the more the attachment, the stronger the (future) suffering.
– In my example of the Anagami, he totally lost one layer of attachment to his wives.
– But he still had some attachment to them, and that is why he agreed to live with them (treating them as his sisters.)Everyone should think about the following. If X dies, which of the following would bring more suffering?
X is a spouse, child, mother, father, relative, close friend, distant relative/friend, someone whom you know, a total stranger.
– I think the answer is obvious. The more the attachment, the higher the suffering.
– Of course, that does not mean one should forcefully lose attachment to one’s family. Things will be taken care of naturally.
– If someone foolishly decides to cut-off his/her family BY FORCE, for example, that person would be committing an immoral act. That is why I say it will happen naturally.
