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“In this chapter it says that Venerable Ugga obtained Arhatship in the pure abodes..”
First, we need to verify that.
– Please find and post the relevant sutta which states that.Here are more resources for learning Pali:
“Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera”
– A few words have wrong meanings!Another good resource is the book, “Pali – Buddha’s Language” by Kurt Schmidt.
– In particular, Appendix B on “Grammar Basics” provides a guide to declension, how the same word is modified to indicate tense, gender, etc.Yes. This is at the heart of the issue of what is involved in becoming a Sotapanna.
“Does this mean that you do not need to meditate to become a Sothapanna?”
“Meditation” could mean two things.
– One is to contemplate on the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma that one heard from an Ariya.” This is to dispel one’s wrong views that worldly things can bring happiness. Note that this wrong view is what is left AFTER one has removed the “ten types of wrong views“. One gets to the mundane Samma Ditthi by removing the ten types of wrong views. One gets to Lokottara Samma Ditthi by starting to see the dangers of sense pleasures (seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta). This is the field of vision (දර්ශන භූමිය)
– The other (and more formal meaning) is the effort that needs to be made to get rid of the WRONG PERCEPTIONS about sense pleasures. A Sotapanna, who has irradicated Sakkayaditthi, Vicikicca and Silabbataparamasa in the step above, still craves sense pleasures due to “viparita sanna” or wrong perceptions. To get rid of that, a Sotapanna needs to contemplate the bad consequences (adinava) of sense pleasures. This is what you referred to as the field of meditation (භාවනා භූමිය). That is how a Sotapanna gets to the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. The tendency to prioritize “sense pleasures” goes away only at the Anagami stage, i.e., kama raga anusaya is reduced at the Sotapanna, and Sakadagami stages, but goes away only at the Anagami stage.Now, let us go through this step-by-step.
One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when he/she starts comprehending the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma” that sense pleasures have dangerous consequences. The key point here is that until one comprehends the fruitlessness AND dangers in not KNOWING the following: Even though an average human thinks that sense pleasures cannot bring harm as long as one leads a moral life, that assumption is wrong.
– This grasping involves a change in the paradigm of one’s world view.
– This is why the Buddha said his Buddha Dhamma has never been known to the world in the absence of a Buddha Sasana.Once one starts comprehending that key point, one is a Sotapanna Anugami, i.e., he/she is one the way (magga) to become a Sotapanna.
– When he/she starts contemplating on this “new vision” of the reality of the wider world of 31 realms with rebirths taking place incessantly (without stop), one will start seeing more and more evidence that it is the correct world view.
– There comes a moment when that conviction becomes irreversible. At that moment, the path to the Sotapanna stage is complete and a magga citta followed by two phala citta flow in one’s mind, and one becomes a Sotapanna.In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය). He/she has at least a vague idea that this “previously unheard Dhamma” is correct.
A Sotapanna has perceptual knowledge (ප්රත්යක්ෂ ඥානය or paccavekkha ñāṇa). He/she KNOWS how birth in any realm arises via the cultivation of a certain set of sankhara. That means he/she understands how the Paticca Samuppada process starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara” leads to a certain existence (bhava) and thus to births (jati) within that bhava. ALL SUCH BIRTHS end up with “jara, marana, soka,…” or the “whole mass of suffering”.
– Until that moment, Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය).
– However, the Buddha stated that a Sotapanna Anugami WILL become a Sotapanna without exceptions. He/she WILL NOT separate from the Ariya birth. That is what is meant by the Tipitaka statements that say “a Sotapanna Anugami WILL NOT die without becoming a Sotapanna.” That refers to “death from the Ariya birth.”If there are questions, please quote from above (regarding what is not clear) when asking questions. That way, I will know exactly what is not clear.
P.S. Of course, there are more details. If you (or anyone else) understand the above but need further clarification regarding a certain point, please feel free to ask too.
“Is it possible that when magga citta occur, one gets into the path and become sotapatti magga puggala.”
No. That is what I explained above.
Magga citta is different from getting into magga (path). Getting into the path DOES NOT require a magga citta.Magga and phala citta happen within a split second. That is discussed in Abhidhamma.
– See the explanation of citta vithi in “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”“Citta Vīthi for Attainment of Magga Phala” is discussed at the end of that post.
P.S. The transition from a pothujjana (average human) to a Sotapanna Anugami USUALLY happens GRADUALLY over days/weeks/months. During the time of the Buddha, of course, many got there within a discourse.
– It MAY take some time for an average person to understand the Noble Truth of Suffering, Paticca Samuppada, Tialkkhana, etc. All those are inter-related.
– When one starts understanding them, one realizes the unfruitfulness AND dangers in staying in the rebirth process.Hello Exist,
There are two possible issues that come into play and that may be why you are asking that question.
1. When one first starts comprehending Buddha Dhamma at a deeper level, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami. That means one gets into the path (magga).
– But it may take many days or even many years for a Sotapanna Anugami to cultivate that path and to become a Sotapanna.2. There is another event that happens at the moment a Sotapanna Anugami becomes a Sotapanna. At the moment, a citta vithi (series of citta) flows and there are three cittas that arise towards the end of that citta vithi. One is the magga citta. That citta is followed by two phala cittas and that is the exact moment that one becomes a Sotapanna.
– This magga citta is different from following the path (magga) as a Sotapanna Anugami in #1 above.So, it could take even years for a Sotapanna Anugami to get to the Sotapanna phala moment (i.e., to become a Sotapanna).
– But there is essentially no time gap between a magga citta and phala citta.Please feel free to ask questions if the above explanation is not clear.
It is important to focus on the main issues. Since you seem to be familiar with the fundamentals, I will briefly go through the main points.
1. The “suffering” that the Buddha wanted to remove is the suffering in future lives. The root causes for that suffering is described by the Paticca Samuppada (PS) process.
2. Any future birth (jati) results from bhava (existence) grasped by upadana (the tendency to attach to vedana).
3. ALL such future births (even in the highest Deva/Brahma realms) end up with varying degrees of suffering. Death is one part of that which can NEVER be avoided in ANY birth.Now we can see the origin of that suffering by looking at the beginning of the PS process.
4. Seeds for new bhava/jati are created by one’s mind with vinnana. There are two types of vinnana. Cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, etc DO NOT generate such kamma bija or seeds. It is the vinnana arising via the “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step in the PS process that creates kamma bija in javana citta. We can call this “kamma vinnana“.
5. Sankhara are our DEFILED thoughts. All three types (mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara) can lead to kamma vinnana. Our speech and actions are also based on our thoughts, and ALL are sankhara. Those that lead to future bhava and jati are strong sankhara or abhisankhara.
6. Why do generate such sankhara? We do that while we engage in “seeking pleasures” from worldly things (rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba). But how can that lead to suffering? This is the key point that most people are unable to grasp.
– First, while we are seeking such sensory pleasures, we may engage in immoral deeds (some people think they can avoid them, but it is only a matter of time until one encounters an irresistible arammana). This is why we often hear about “good, moral people) getting caught in taking bribes, raping, or some other sexual misconduct.
– Second, as long as one has craving for “pleasures” available in kama, rupa, and arupa loka, one WILL be born in one of those. If one has craving for food (or other sense pleasures), it is not possible to avoid births in the kama loka. If one likes to enjoy rupavacara jhana, it is NOT possible to avoid birts in one of the 16 realms in rupa loka. Same for arupavacara jhana.7. That is what we discussed in #1. As long as there is a birth (jati) in this world, there WILL BE suffering. The PS process starts with avijja and ends in “soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, etc. WITHOUT exception. Even if one is born in the highest Brahma realm, that life will end at some point (i.e., invariably encounter death). Furthermore, one can then be born in any lower realm including the apayas.
– Not understanding THAT is avijja.
– That is why the PS process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara.” One generates (abhi)sankhara and engage in “pleasure-seeking” (regardless of whether they involve sensual pleasures or jhanic pleasures) because one has NOT understood that process.We can discuss the details if you or anyone else has questions. But that is the basic framework.
Hello Chan,
Good. I have a fairly good idea. It seems that you are well-versed with the fundamentals.
I get many requests for phone/Skype chats. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time in a day.
But I will think about a way to get you to look at the issue of “getting to Samma Ditthi” maybe from a bit different perspective. It may take a day or two, but I will post some suggestions here.
In the meantime, I wonder whether you have read posts in the new section that I started recently;
“Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach”
– It is a different approach and could be appealing to someone with a technical/scientific background like yourself.Hello Lang,
I think you had the wrong title for the post? I just revised the topic title.
I think you meant the recent post, “Rupa and Rupakkhandha, Nāma and Nāmagotta”
It is a good idea to provide the link to the post in question. That way, there is no ambiguity and also others can see what you refer to.
Regarding your question:
The recalled memory comes back with EXACTLY the same rupa (image) and the associated vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana felt at that time in the past (if it can be recalled with precision; see below).
– That is what I stated in #7, which had the statement: “I must emphasize that one’s experiences are the same as one’s thoughts that arose in mind at THAT TIME.”
– In #8 I provided evidence from the video that was in a previous post. Please watch that video again if not clear.P.S. Of course, those of us who do not have HSAM do not fully experience past memories. But those people with HSAM do, as I discussed in #8.
P.P.S. I read #7 again. You are correct that it gives the impression that ALL OF US will re-live past experiences. Thanks for pointing that out. I just revised #7 as follows:
7. Pick the name of a friend that you have not seen for many years. How long does it take to recall his/her face? Almost instantly.
– That is the same way those people with HSAM recall their past. I urge everyone to re-read the post, “Autobiographical Memory – Preserved in Nāma Loka.”
– That post gives an idea of how precisely one’s experiences are preserved in the nāma loka. I must emphasize that one’s experiences are the same as one’s thoughts that arose in mind at THAT TIME. However, that depends on one’s ability to recall that past memory. An average human doesn’t even remember many past events.
– When a person with HSAM recalls a past event, he/she RE-LIVES that experience. But it is not so vivid for those who do not have HSAM.
– But the point is that over 50 people have such vivid and detailed “re-living” of past experiences means that those detailed records have been kept somewhere.Hello Chan,
What you are asking is to explain the basis of Buddha Dhamma. That cannot be done in a reply in a discussion forum.
However, I can point you in the right direction.
– First, I need to know how much exposure you have had to Buddha Dhamma. Please provide a brief description.Here are some points I would like you to address:
– Are you a practicing Buddhist or have no idea of what Buddhism is?
– Do you believe in rebirth?
– Do you know what the ten wrong views (miccha ditthi) are?
– Have you read any sections on the pure dhamma website? If so, which ones? Any comments on what you have read may help me get an idea of your current understanding.Hello Jonathan,
Music and Buddha Dhamma do not mix well.
I understand that music provides temporary relief from day-to-day stresses.
– But the goal of Buddha Dhamma is to get to a permanent solution to the much deeper problem of suffering.But music (like all other sensory pleasures) is a hindrance to practicing the path of the Buddha.
I have removed the link from your post.
– I wish you well with your efforts.Tobias asked: “What means paccavekkhana-ñana?”
That means to VERIFY by oneself.
Seeing the truth of something is the first step. That gets rid of the wrong views and one SEES the real nature of the world.
But verifying the truth of that by EXPERIENCE needs more work, more contemplation.
For example, a Sotapnna can SEE the bad consequences of engaging in sensual pleasures.
– However, the tendency to like sensual pleasures is still there. That goes away in two more steps of Sakadagami and Anagami stages.In other words, a Sotapanna has removed ditthi vipallasa, but still has sanna vipallasa.
“Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Sankhāra”Also see, “How to Remove Sanna and Citta Vipallasa About Dukkha and Asubha“
Good Point, Tobias.
I just revised the post to remove the “fully” prefix.
A Sotapanna understands those qualities to the point that he/she would have avecca pasāda in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.
– Such a person would SEE (passati) that there is no other refuge than the refuge of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
– But there is much more to REALIZE BY EXPERIENCE (i.e. to attain the paccavekkhana-ñana). That is reached at the Arahant stage.Hello Ramsden!
Yes. Ther are many interpretations of Pali words. Each person needs to decide which ones make sense. I have explained as I (and Waharaka Thero) have understood them.
The only other thing I can say is the following.
Uddacca-kukkucca is one of five hindrances (panca nivarana) that COVERS the mind and hinders the mind from understanding deeper Dhamma.
– That “covering of the mind” is mainly due to the three immoral roots, lobha, dosa, moha.All five of the five hindrances have roots in lobha, dosa, and moha in varying degrees and combinations.
P.S. Uddacca and kukkucca are TWO different mental factors (cetasika). Those are different from uddacca-kukkucca, one of the panca nivarana. It is specifically due to uddacca LEADING to kukkucca.
– Kukkucca is removed (together with the uddacca-kukkucca nivarana) at the Sotapanna stage.
– A reduced form of uddacca (a sense of self-importance) remains even after the Anagami stage and is removed only at the Arahant stage.Regarding Lvalio’s comment above, “bodhisattvas follow holy life under the Buddhas, purify virtue, learn buddha’s teachings, practice meditative life, and develop insight to proper knowledge(anulomañana). But they make no effort to reach the supermundane ways and their fruits.”
That is not quite correct.
– It is not that they do not make any effort. Unless he is told by a Buddha in a given lifetime, he would not even know that he is a Bodhisatta. Note that even though he met 28 Buddhas, and got “niyata vivarana” from them, there were many many eons that passed during that time.
– They do make their best effort. However, once he gets “niyata vivarana” there is NO POSSIBILITY for the Bodhisatta to comprehend the Four Noble Truths (i.e., Tilakkhana) by learning them from someone else.
– All he will be doing from the point of getting “niyata vivarana” is to complete any unfulfilled tasks on the way to the Buddhahood.One of the key points many people do not understand is “niyata vivarana“.
– I will explain that in detail at some point. But the following is the key idea.
– We all have our future “mapped out” at any point in time. However, that map KEEPS CHANGING all the time, based on our actions. For example, if one commits a bad deed, that map will change in a “bad way”.
– But once the Bodhisatta completes most of the paramita (tasks) required for the Buddhahood, the map DOES NOT change, at least not significantly. For example, going back to 28 Buddhas who gave “niyata vivarana“, they all saw that our Bodhisatta WILL attain the Buddhahood.I am going to write the following just to try one more time to make my point clear. I do not wish to engage in endless debates that have no endings. Hopefully, the following will help clarify the point for at least some people. Another relevant point is that some concepts become clear ONLY AFTER relevant background material is absorbed. So, I don’t want to discourage anyone either (see my comments and the suggested posts at the end).
lkoren in his last comment wrote: “My point was simply that if the Buddha as an ascetic had access to the path as expounded by the Buddha Kassapa, then it would have been inevitable that even if he was unable to understand it initially upon looking at his past lives or in any of his past lives.”
Suppose there is a person X living right now. X is very intelligent and has studied physics and quantum mechanics as well.
– Late Dr. Richard Feynman was one of the best physicists ever lived. He stated that no one really understood quantum mechanics. But suppose there is a person Y who does understand. So, in that sense Y is like a Buddha, who FULLY understands quantum mechanics.
– Now Y teaches X all about quantum mechanics. But X is unable to understand it, like most other physicists. X may understand parts of relevant physics, but not the WHOLE picture.Our Bodhisatta (bhikkhu Jotipala) learning Dhamma from Buddha Kassapa can be compared to that. (Bhikkhu Jotipala is X and Buddha Kassapa is Y, in this crude analogy).
– Of course, bhikkhu Jotipala probably understood many concepts. But he was unable to make progress beyond a certain point.
– Here is an EXTRA issue that comes into play. Bhikkhu Jotipala is INHERENTLY incapable of learning the whole truth from ANY other person, including another Buddha. That is a part of the “paramita“. Let me discuss that in a bit more detail.A Bodhisatta’s wish is to save a large number of people from the suffering in the rebirth process. By DEFINITION, that means he wants to attain the Buddhahood when pure Buddha Dhamma is NOT available in the world. Then that Bodhisatta HAS TO comprehend everything by himself.
– Previous Buddhas had already confirmed that bhikkhu Jotipala was going to be a Buddha. Thus, his mind WOULD NOT grasp the deep Dhamma from Buddha Kassapa. When Buddha Kassapa looked into why bhikkhu Jotipala could not make progress, he also saw that bhikku Jotipala was destined to be a Buddha.
– Ascetic Siddhatta MAY HAVE had the ability to recall his previous life. I am not sure whether that is a fact (i.e., it is in the Tipitaka). Even if he did, that would not help him to make the BREAKTHROUGH.
– Ascetic Siddhatta would be in the same position that bhikkhu Jotipala was at the time of Buddha Kassapa. In our analogy, they both are like X. Mere description provided by Y was not enough to gain the insight needed for X.Now, getting to the Buddhahood is, of course, much harder than comprehending quantum mechanics. But I hope one can get the idea.
Regarding the comments that I made at the beginning of this post, the following sections could be helpful:
“Buddhahood Associated Controversies”
“Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach”It takes a real effort to see the “whole picture” and that takes time. It is a step-by-step process. There is no point in overly analyzing “what if” scenarios in some cases. Things will automatically become clear as one proceeds.
– Of course, there is a balance, since one does not want to blindly believe things either. That is why I started writing the above two sections.
