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Yesterday, after receiving the email from Daniel (that he was unable to post the link at the forum due to some reason), I remembered a post that I wrote a few years ago. That post may provide more information on this subject.
– Yes. I think it is a good subject to be discussed because incorrect meditation techniques labeled as “Buddhist meditations” can scare away people from the correct Buddhist meditation techniques.The following link on someone’s meditation experience at a meditation retreat was sent by DanielSt:
“When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led Me To Meltdown“
Thanks, Tobias.
I have revised both posts to make it clear.
“Two Versions of 37 Factors of Enlightenment”
“Pañca Indriya and Pañca Bala – Five Faculties and Five Powers”
Please read through and see whether both are self-consistent now.
“#1. Does preta’s have a āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya?”
– There are different kinds of pretas. Some are said to have an āhāraja kāya. But they have less-dense bodies like Devas.
“#2. To me, it seems like there’s a connection between pasada rupa’s and utuja kaya.”
– The time sequence is as follows. The kammaja kaya (with hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa) arise first at the patisandhi moment. It is created solely by kammic energy. That kammaja kaya starts generating citta and thus the cittaja kaya arises immediately afterward. Utuja rupa are produced by both the kammaja kaya and cittaja kaya and thus that comes next. That is the gandhabba with those three kāya.
– When that gandhabba gets into a womb, it starts making the āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya.“Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?”
– No. That is why hell-beings have “solid bodies” that can feel the bodily dukkha vedana.
– A Deva feels sukha/dukha vedana because they have “solid-enough” bodies, even though less dense than ours. They also belong to kama loka. P.S. Just to clarify: Even though the gandhabba is human and belongs to the kama loka, it does not have a nose, tongue, and a physical body for touch. “Gandha + abba” does not happen through a nose. It is a different mechanism. Devas have all five physical senses.
– Anyway, you need to pause and think before asking more questions.“If the Gandhabba is not embodied, there are no “bodily” sensations? I mean, there are no sensations generated through utuja kaya and impinging on “kaya pasada rupa”?”
– How can there be “bodily sensations” if the physical body is not active??
“When Gandhabba is not embodied, it should also feel bodily sensations due to the impingement of kaya rupa from within, i.e. from utuja kaya, right?”
– No. When the gandhabba is out of the body, there will be no bodily sensations, because the body would be like a piece of wood.
“There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?”
– Yes.
– You may have read V. S. Ramachandran’s popular book, “Phantoms in the Brain” (1998). If not, that would be a good read.
– Also read the post, “Vision (Cakkhu Viññāṇa) is Not Just Seeing” I mention that book there.This issue has been discussed at length in two threads. Following is a post of mine in one of them:
“Triplegemstudent wrote to me and we had a discussion via email. I am just going to post one of my emails and his last email.
My email:
This issue was discussed at:
“Post on “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”
The essence of the discussion is in my following reply there, close to the top of the thread, was as follows:“Dr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.”
Then I asked the Triplegemstudent:
Would you take that offer?
Imagine the worst suffering that you ever experienced in your life.
– Suffering in an apaya is MUCH worse. We can get a glimpse of it by thinking about an animal in the wild (not a pet). How many old animals are in a jungle? They are eaten alive as soon as they get a bit old.Following is part of the final response of the Triplegemstudent:
“I read the whole discussion before and that’s why the idea/thought came to my mind. I wasn’t able to find a satisfactory answer including what you, myself or anyone answered. In my previous e-mail before this one, what I was trying to say was what I came to realize is what me and Dr. J Chakam is/was thinking/saying how we spend more time in the Brahma realms and therefore “should” be enjoying more pleasure is the wrong/incorrect thinking.
Because rather one is enjoying more pleasure or suffering, it’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta in any of the 31 realms of existence. As long as we’re stuck in the rebirth process Sansara, not attaining Magga phala or Nibbana, the end result is always more suffering. And like you said, the suffering in the apaya is much worse and possibly greater > than any pleasures we receive.
So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.
Because that 9 and 3 months is both Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta I shouldn’t/don’t want to even to get involved with the pleasure or suffering in the first place because all that is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. It’s better to attain Magga Phala/Nibbana, so that I don’t even have to make such a decision/or be in that position like in your example in the first place.
This is what I meant when I said, what me and Dr. J Chakma was thinking is wrong/incorrect.”
My comment:
I am impressed by his reply.
He wrote: “So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.”He realized the deeper aspect of it. That is in a way the First Noble Truth that the Buddha was trying to explain.
– What we PERCEIVE to be a pleasure (in sensory pleasures or even in jhanic pleasures in those Brahma realms) has “hidden suffering.” The more one is enamored by them, the more difficult it becomes to be able to free of ALL future suffering.*****
The above comment was posted on September 15, 2020 at 2:24 pm in the thread “First noble truth”
*****
Daniel’s other question:
“In Ven Bodhi’s book on Abhidhamma, on page 230, he lists the rebirth-destinations for individual realms. Are these correct in your opinion? According to these, a Brahman would not immediately go to hell in a next bhava, but would be reborn as Deva or human and could go to hell or apāyā in a bhava after that.– Yes. I agree with that. A Brahma would not be born directly in an apaya upon death.
“I’m not sure what source is (AN-a 9:21).”
It is ” Tiṭhāna Sutta (AN 9.21)”
English trnslation there: “21. In Three Particulars”
– Note that Jambudipa” is incorrectly translated as, “India” there.No. I don’t recall where I got that information. But I am sure it exists in the Tipitaka because it is either something I heard from Waharaka Thero or I saw it somewhere in the Tipitaka.
– If someone knows, please post.Anyway, it is not worthwhile to spend time on these aspects to great extent. Of course, these have the benefit of enhancing saddha. But there is the issue of time too!
– Time is better spent on learning Dhamma concepts.From the above link by Lang, the informative rebirth account is at:
Thanks, Daniel.
I am not sure whether I referred to a relevant sutta there. The following sutta describes that there are a thousand world-systems of which ours (Earth-based life) in just one. Furthermore, there are an uncountable number of such “clusters.”
“Paṭhamakosala Sutta (AN 10.29)”
– “..sahassaṁ jambudīpānaṁ sahassaṁ aparagoyānānaṁ sahassaṁ uttarakurūnaṁ sahassaṁ pubbavidehānaṁ” refer to those 4 human abodes within ours. Of course, we can see only the jambudīpā or this Earth. This also confirms that jambudīpā is NOT India or Sri Lanka. It includes all countries where humans live (those we can see).
– A reasonable translation there: “Kosala (1)”Different Buddhas are born in different clusters. This is why the Buddha said this kind of analysis is unthinkable for average humans. See, “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“.
– A reasonable translation there: “Unconjecturable“I think your questions of a “self” will be answered in the upcoming posts in the new section:
“Basic Framework of Buddha Dhamma“All types of bhava start with a hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa.
– That set can be called “manomaya kaya.” So, any living being has a manomaya kaya.Brahmas and Devas are born with that manomaya kaya AND a “physical body.” They live their whole lives in that state. Those “physical bodies” of Brahmas and Devas are, of course, at a much less density compared to “human bodies.”
Humans and animals are born only with the manomaya kaya at the patisandhi moment. They start making “physical bodies” after getting into a womb.
– However, such manomaya kaya can become a bit dense due to inhaling the aroma of plants, flowers, etc. Thus the name gandhabba (gandha + abba).The other 3 realms in the apayas can be complex. For example, a hell-being is said to born with a full physical body. They get “killed” often due to torture, but are reborn instantaneously until that kammic energy is exhausted.
You wrote: ” I wanted to write another post on the topic of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw, but it seems that the topic is closed.”
– Which three is that? If you post the link I can re-open it.That was an old post and I just revised it.
Thanks to DanielSt for bringing it up.
– Please read the post and ask any unanswered questions.Revised post: “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralōka)“
