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Daniel asked: “That means, he is speaking about lifetime of jati of physical body, right? The human bhava can be longer.”
– Yes. The lifetime of the physical body can be very different from time to time. It depends on the environment. It does not decline over time either. Instead, there are “waves” with lifetimes going up and down with time.
– I think one of those suttas says that the current lifetime of about 100 years will decline to 10 years and go back up to many hundreds of years before the next Buddha (Buddha Maitreya) is born.
– Yes. the lifetime at the time of Gotama Buddha was about the same as now. It may take millions of years to see any significant change.
– On the other hand, the duration of the human bhava depends only on kammic energy.After thinking about it, I think it may be a good idea to have a separate post on five hindrances within the new series of posts on “Basic Framework of Buddha Dhamma”
But the main point is that “thina middha” is a hindrance.
– On the other hand, thina and middha are TWO SEPARATE cetasika (mental factors).
– When they appear TOGETHER, that is a hindrance to comprehending Dhamma.The same is true for uddhacca kukkucca.
I have revised the post, “Key to Calming the Mind – The Five Hindrances” but will provide more details in upcoming posts.
Cubibobi and Daniel are quite right.
Gandhabba has a set of suddhatthaka, “smallest amounts of matter” in Buddha Dhamma.
– That is what cubibobi (Lang) referred to as “Rūpa as things made up of the 4 great elements can be considered “material”.Gandhabba is also a living being, specifically human.
– So, it has a rupakkhandha that includes all past rupa that it has ever experienced in the rebirth process. It also has expectations of experiencing certain rupa in the future, and those are also included in rupakkhandha. At a given moment, it may be experiencing some rupa, and those are also included. That is why rupakkhandha includes all past, future, and present rupa.
– The post that Lang (cubibobi) referred to above explains all this. But if one does not make an effort to read, and think and spend some time on this critical issue, one may miss out on other concepts that REQUIRE this clarification.Same clarification applies to vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, and vinnanakkhandha. See, “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)”
Of course, we cannot recall ALL that is in the five aggregates (rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, and vinnanakkhandha).
– Most people cannot recall some events that happened even yesterday. But they may recall significant events that happened years ago, etc.
– Some children can recall some events in their previous life with a human body.
– Some yogis with abhinna powers may be able to recall several or even many past lives.
– A Buddha can recall anything in the past, not only in his lifestream but anyone else’s.P.S. just to emphasize: A memory has not only an imprint of that previous rupa but associated mental aggregates. When we recall a happy event in the past, for example, we recall those who were there AND also the kind of joy experienced.
– Same applies when recalling a song, a meal, etc. experienced in the past.Of course, gandhabba has the five aggregates.
As I wrote above, we are all gandhabbas inside “physical shells”.
– The physical body is inert (lifeless) when the gandhabba comes out.
– Try to think logically. How do people who have “out-of-body experiences” see and hear OUTSIDE the physical body. At that time they have only the “gandhabba kaya” or the “manomaya kaya”.
See, “Mental Body Versus the Physical Body“We are all gandhabbas with physical bodies.
– So, we can taste food, smell odors, and touch things (sexual activities included).A gandhabba without a physical body (while waiting to get into a womb) is human too.
– It just does not have a physical body that can do the above three things. Thus it does not generate kaya sankhara.
– But all cravings and attachments are there.
– It can still cultivate vaci sankhara and drastically change its personality (gati).
– Vaci sankhara generation does not require “speaking”, i.e., it does not require a physical body. That gandhabba can talk to itself and still generate vaci sankhara. See the post, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“Question: “Does the gandhabba undergo a constant change from the time of conception till the death of the body
or does the change happen only at the time of death?”Gandhabba can undergo change both while inside a physical body or while outside (while waiting for a womb).
– Drastic changes in gandhabba can happen while inside a physical body (like us) IF we attain stages of Nibbana. If one attains the Sotapanna stage, then that gandhabba will never be born an animal or one of the lowest realms (apayas). Of course, the most drastic change would be to become an Arahant.Question: “You mentioned karmic energy, is the energy cumulatively formed for the next body, to take it to the next destination (animal, human, deva, and other forms)?”
For humans, kammic energy is acquired at any time, especially while in a physical body. Each of us has done many, many good and bad kamma in our past lives. All those can potentially bring in kammma vipaka.
– Of course, the strongest ones have the priority to bring vipaka.
– For example, if someone kills one of the parents, that kamma will lead to a birth in an apaya when that person dies. It will not wait to bring vipaka in a future life, because it is one of the strongest bad kammas (anantariya kamma).I am glad that you are getting the basic idea.
I just want to say a word about your statement: “The seed and tree analogy helped further. I have a son, and I can see that his parents, grandparents, and all our combined karmas contributed to his cause of existence.”
That last part is not quite correct. That may be because you may have gotten a somewhat wrong impression from my “tree analogy.”
In the case of your son, his existence is based MOSTLY on his own kamma.
– You provided the “chemical base” (zygote) for your son’s gandhabba to build a new human body.
– In the same way, your parents provided the chemical base for your gandhabba to build a new human body.
(The zygote’s role is explained in the post, “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception“)Now, when you are reborn a human again (assuming that your “human gandhabba” has more kammic energy left) another set of parents will provide the chemical base (zygote) to build a new human body.
– But at the end of the human bhava, you will transition into a different bhava, say a Deva bhava. That is when your gandhabba will make a “bigger transition.” That new Deva is not the same as the human gandhabba but without the continuation of the “human gandhabba lifestream” that Deva would not be born. That is what I tried to explain with the “tree analogy.”
– Sometimes the analogies are not as good as we hope. My apologies if it led to a misunderstanding.First, PLEASE provide a link to the post that you refer to. I believe the following is the post that you refer to:
“Key to Calming the Mind – The Five Hindrances”“1) I have seen this claim that Thina middha goes away at Sotapanna only from you so far. Do you have a source or some more information on it?”
You have not seen it discussed like that because most people do not know enough Dhamma to realize that. There may not be a Tipitaka reference for each and every issue. There are some things we can deduce based on other related evidence.
“2) Even a Sotapanna must have some laziness or drowsiness, right?”
– Your question is based on the assumption that thina middha means laziness/drowsiness. That is not so. Please read #9 in the post in question.I will try to expand on the above post to provide more info, probably after I finish the next planned post.
Thank you, Aniduan.
Yes. That clip gives the basic idea. Nicely done!Just to add a bit more. When a seed from a tree gives rise to a new one that second tree is not the same as the old one. But it would not have arisen without the first tree.
– That is, of course, a crude analogy.“But are javana citta also required for daily life like pushing open a heavy door..”
Yes. That is likely.
The difference is that if there is no lobha, dosa, moha involved in that effort, it will not have created “kammic seeds” to bring vipaka in the FUTURE.
– Whatever javana power created would be used for getting the job done at that time.But we need to keep in mind that mundane alobha, adosa, adosa also can have kammic consequences, i.e., create kammic energies that can bring vipaka in the future. See, “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna)”
– So, in a strict sense, only Arahant’s actions will be TOTALLY free of kammic consequences.Daniel’s description is good. The following post also describes how a “lifestream” evolves without a “soul.”
“What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream”Raj wrote: “The Buddha had encountered Dipankara Buddha thousands of eons ago. After that as a Boddhisatta, he took many forms (including many animal forms, as per Jataka tales), and on the night of his enlightenment he could see all these forms. So there was a continuity, it was the same individual, from the time he saw Dipankara Buddha, till the time he got enlightened under the Bodhi tree. What was it which remained same throughout that period?”
– NOTHING remained the same during that whole period.
– Each subsequent life arose based on the causes accumulated in the past AND conditions prevailing at the moment of grasping a new existence. This is what is explained in Paticca Samuppada, and this is hard to comprehend issue for many people.Raj asked: “Is it the same Gandhabba undergoing slight modifications but still the same.”
– It is NOT the same gandhabba. Each time a new existence (human, Deva, animal, hell-being, etc) a BRAND NEW gandhabba is created by kammic energy.
– This is essentially the difference between Vedi teachings and Buddha Dhamma.
– By the way, Vedic teachings originated with Buddha Kassapa who lived before Buddha Gotama. That is why there are some similarities. Vedas took the concept of gandhabba and turned it into an “indestructible atman/soul”. I have discussed this briefly in some posts. See, for example, #8 in “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..”I know it is very hard to get rid of the perception of a “me”. In fact, even a Sotapanna has that PERCEPTION, but a Sotapanna has seen that there is NOTHING that migrates through adjacent lives. The perception of a “me” goes away only at the Anagami stage. Then there is still a trace of “me” left and that goes away completely at the Arahant stage.
Thank you, Raj, for your description.
So, as you wrote, “According to vedic scholars, the soul is 1/10000th the size of the tip of one’s hair. It cannot be cut, burnt or destroyed.” That means it is permanent.
That is similar to the concept of an eternal (permanent) soul in Christianity, Islam, etc. Of course, the details are different.
– As you wrote, in Vedic teachings, “Liberation is the state where one is freed from bondage and ego is given up (monistic schools) and one merges and become one with Parabrahman which is a state of unlimited joy, or the ego is purified (dualistic schools) and one exists eternally and serves God. In the monistic school individual identity is given up and one ceases to exist, in the dualistic school, the identity is maintained as an eternal servant of God.”I was not aware of this part of your statement: “.. the soul is 1/10000th the size of the tip of one’s hair.”
– Anyway, the point is that Vedic teachings imply a soul that is permanent.The difference in Buddhism is that there is nothing permanent that goes from life to life.
– There is an “entity” that would be even smaller than “1/10000th the size of the tip of one’s hair” created by kammic energy when a new existence is grasped. That is gandhabba in Buddha Dhamma.
– And that gandhabba is NOT permanent. If one goes from a human to animal existence, that gandhabba will change. That change happens according to Paticca Samuppada.
– The Buddha taught that suffering cannot be stopped until that process of transitioning from one gandhabba state to another is stopped. That is Nibbana.That is of course only a summary. I don’t think I can explain any further in these exchanges. My recommendation would be to read the posts in the following link to understand how new existences arise due to one’s own actions:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“Daniel and I had an exchange of emails based on the account of Jasbir on discussed by Ian Stevenson in his book “Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation”.
– It starts on p. 34 of Stevenson’s book.A short summary: Jasbir was down with a serious illness. When he recovered his personality changed to that of Sobha Ram who died around the same time.
– So it appears that Jasbir’s gandhabba left Jasbir’s physical body, and Sobha Ram’s gandhabba took control of that physical body.For that to happen, the “transition” must have happened quickly. A dead body starts decomposing quickly.
The following was my conclusion in my email to Daniel:
Jasbir’s and other witnesses’ accounts look good. But there is no real evidence of two personalities living in the same body or the same gandhabba living in two bodies SIMULTANEOUSLY.
That is because the dates/times of the death of Sobha Ram are not really known (May 23 or May 23, 1954.)
– Even more problematic is the uncertainty of the “change of personality” of Jasbir. Ref. 24 says it could have happened in April or May of 1954.
– Reference 24 on p. 35 has a summary of those events above.So, Jasbir may have had the “change of personality” after the death of Sobha Ram, i.e., in principle the gandhabba that came out of the DEAD BODY of Sobha Ram MAY HAVE entered the DEAD BODY of Jasbir.
– In principle, that would be possible as long as that gandhabba entered the dead body of Jasbir IMMEDIATELY AFTER the original gandhabba that was in Jasbir’s body left.Once a physical body dies, it starts decomposing right away. That is a critical issue.
To add to that: That applies to a zygote in a womb too. Sometimes, a gandhabba takes possession of a zygote but leaves (more like pulled out by kammic forces, due to possible mismatch) after a short while. Then it is possible for another gandhabba to take possession of that zygote (as directed by kammic forces) before the zygote is expelled from the womb.
“Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception”Raj asked: “my main quest is to understand if the concept of a soul was prevalent during the time of the Buddha”
– Yes. It was the concept of an “atman” (or “āthma“). You stated that you are familiar with Vedic teachings. What is the concept of an “atman” as you understand?
Once you answer that question, I will try to answer your other questions. I just need to figure out how to answer them so that you will be able to understand.
Let me add another “inviolable rule” to the set of rules that I posted earlier:
The following must hold:
1. A given gandhabba can be in only one body at a given time.
2. It is possible for a gandhabba to come out of a womb (detach from a zygote in the womb), and for another gandhabba to take possession of that zygote in the womb. A gandhabba getting hold of a “dead body” of a full-grown person or even a baby is dubious.
3. A gandhabba cannot decide to take hold of a zygote, a baby’s body, or an adult’s body. That is determined by nature (laws of kamma).I think we should not get carried away by some of these accounts.
