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1. A and B are not the same, but they are “connected” via causes (hetu) and results (phala.)
- B would not have been born unless A was there.
- Had A followed Buddha’s path and ended the rebirth process, B would not have been born. Had A cultivated jhana or samapatti, B would have been born a Brahma with less suffering. If A had done papa kamma (highly immoral deeds), B would have been born in an apaya.
- This is why it is critical to understand Paticca Samuppada and how various gati lead to corresponding births.
2. We can end future suffering even in this life (let alone in future lives) by cultivating the path.
- Yet, we get “fooled” by our “built-in distorted sanna” and attach to worldly things, believing that “sensory pleasures (kama guna) are in that external object.” This is the main reason that most rebirths in the apayas.
- Think about the following. Some people force women to cover up their bodies, believing what causes men’s lust is beautiful women. Even though women need to be sensible about not “triggering” kama assada in ignorant minds by over-exposing themselves, that is NOT the ultimate solution. One can control one’s mind by comprehending Buddha Dhamma, i.e., “sensual pleasures” are not in external things, but in one’s own mind: “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”
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That is correct, Gad.
- But that is not what you wrote earlier: “It is said that King Sudoddhana (the father of Lord Buddha) attained the anagami stage by listening to a jataka.”
For the benefit of anyone not aware of this:
A “Jataka story” is an account of the previous life of the Bodhisatta while he was fulfilling “paramita” to attain Buddhahood. As Gad stated in his last comment, they describe how to live a moral life and realize that even to attain Arahanthood, one must start at some point.
- However, many of those accounts have been poorly translated. Thus, discussing such translations can just waste our time.
- More information in “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“
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“Having heard this news from the king, the Buddha delivered a sermon based on the Mahā Dhammapāla Jataka”
- According to your link, that statement refers to the occasion when the King attained the Anagami stage. He had already attained the Sotapanna and Sakdagami stages before that.
- The Buddha may have referred to a Jataka story where the two of them were born in a family, but I cannot see how one can attain the Anagami stage just by listening to a Jataka story. It is just an account of a past life.
- I am not sure what the point is. Are you saying that magga phala can be attained without comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana but just by listening to a Jataka story?
It is hard to say either way until a jhana is cultivated to the extent that one can willfully get into it.
- The Buddha described the jhanic experience of someone fully immersed in jhana. See “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2).”
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What you quoted is not a sutta, Gad.
- Jataka stories are not suttas.
- I am not quite sure about their origins and have not read them. Most translations are old, and there are likely to be many translation errors.
- We do not discuss them in this forum.
To get to the Buddhahood, Paccekabuddhahood, or Arahanthood, one must comprehend the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana. I discussed this in “Key Problems with Mahāyāna Teachings.”
- We only know how to get to Arahanthood, as taught by the Buddha.
- But the Buddha has described the efforts of some previous Buddhas and himself in the “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14).”
I thought about the issue of time a little bit.
- Of course, time is real (not an illusion). But it is likely that the “perception of how fast time goes by” may be relative.
- For example, a day in a specific Deva realm corresponds to many years in the human realm. See “Visākhā Sutta (AN 8.43).”
- As stated there (@6.4 marker), “Sixteen hundred years in the human realm is one day and night in the paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm.”
- Even among animals, we can have a wide variety of lifetimes. Some flies live only a week. Their time must be passing much more slowly compared to us.
It is OK to have a general idea about these facts.
- My point was that spending too much effort on these issues takes time away from more critical issues like understanding “distorted sanna.” That is one of the critical issues that can significantly impact one’s practice. It truly helps eliminate sakkaya ditthi (that the world can offer happiness; instead, any such enjoyment is “mind-made” and not real) as well kama raga.
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1. Sometimes, analyzing things in too much detail can lead to more questions than answers.
- I prefer to resolve critical issues as much as with the Sutta Pitaka and the critical concepts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
- The Vinaya Pitaka is mainly on issues with Vinaya (disciplinary) rules and incidents that led to specific Vinaya rules. Many of those accounts can provide additional information, but they are not critical.
- I never look at Commentaries outside the Tipitaka. I resort to even the Tipitaka Commentaries only if necessary.
- However, I am not saying to avoid consulting Tipitaka Commentaries.
2. I think we can get a good understanding of various types of “vipallasa” mostly with the aid of the Sutta Pitaka.
- Understanding “sanna vipallasa” (arising due to “distorted sanna“) can resolve many issues. It helps with the other types of vipallasa too.
- I prefer to discuss the posts that have been published rather than trying to analyze passages from the Commentaries.
- If there are issues that are contradictory or unclear or need further clarification, please ask specific questions by pointing to a post and specific bullet numbers.
- However, if you feel strongly about a specific passage in a Commentary, I can take a look.
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Dosakkhayo wrote: “I may be wrong, but I think we should consider the possibility that sīlabbatupādāna is not the same as bhavupādāna.”
- Of course, those are two are different. “Silabbata upadana” means to “adhere to various anariya techniques to enjoy kama or jhanic pleasures (may be even believing they lead to Nibbana.) “Bhava upadana” means “craving a certain type of existence” hoping that would lead to permanent happiness.
- Did I say in a post they are the same? If they are the same, there is no need to list them as two categories.
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Yes. Our senses are amenable to only the human and animal realms.
- Many things about the other 29 realms are not amenable to our limited senses.
- While it is good to be aware of such phenomena, we should not spend too much time investigating them—still, these “nuggets” point out the complexity of the broader world of 31 realms.
Scientists are discovering many “strange phenomena” even within the animal realm. In many cases, animals have better or different sense capabilities.
- The sensory faculties of humans or animals (and in other realms) are devised by kammic energy to according the gati that gave rise to each birth.
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I am not sure discussing this issue helps cultivate the path.
- The Buddha repeatedly mentioned the following: “I only teach about suffering, how it arises, and how it can be overcome.”
- Unless someone can show how this discussion about time is related to the above statement, I don’t even want to think about this issue.
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Thank you, Dosakhayo, for the reference!
- It helps to quote the Tipitaka reference whenever we can (especially in a case like this, which can never be confirmed otherwise; some points can be confirmed by MUNDANE logic or reasoning, but this is an exception.)
P.S. We can learn a lot by contemplating what is embedded in this “information nugget.”
- This gives an idea of how “fine” or “subtle” the “body of a Deva” is.
- If 60 Devas can comfortably stay inside the space of a hole in a needle, we can imagine how small an entity it is (in mundane physical terms, we are used to).
- Listening does not REQUIRE dense physical ears. When outside a physical human body, a gandhabba hears similarly, just using the “sota pasada rupa.” Seeing is the same way.
- The dense physical body REQUIRED only for physical touching, tasting, and smelling. But then we have to endure the suffering that comes with it: injuries, sicknesses like cancer, body aches, etc.
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Thank you, Gad, for posting that sutta.
- The reason that many Devas visited the ‘human world” during the time of the Buddha was to learn Dhamma from the Buddha. There is no compelling reason for them to visit these days. (However, Waharaka Thero mentioned in a discourse that he occasionally had some evidence for such a visit.) Learning from a Buddha is a rare event.
- I read somewhere that an unimaginable number of Devas listened to the first sutta that the Buddha delivered. I remember the quotation (but not the source): “There were 60 Devas packed into a space comparable to the hole in a needle.” Since Devas have very fine bodies, that is not a crowded space for them!
- Of course, there were only five humans there, the five ascetics. While only Ven. Kondanna attained the Sotapanna stage that night, a vast number of Devas and Brahmas attained various magga phala.
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Excellent observation!
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Those are two different yet related phenomena.
1. The first one is more related to vaci sankhara (vitakka/vicara.)
- Before speaking or moving the body, we “talk to ourselves” about it, i.e., “the mind thinks about it” and even deliberate various aspects like “Should I say something?”, “Is it appropriate?” etc.
- But how much one deliberates is relative. Some people think incessantly about whether to do something or say something. But there are others who just “go with the flow.”
- That lady is in the second category. She does not even realize that she thinks before saying, writing, or doing things.
2. The second category is a more established “field of investigation.” See “Aphantasia.”
- The opposite of aphantasia is phantasia or “to fantasize.” Again, some people spend hours fantasizing about various expectations or “reliving past events” by recalling those events. They have vivid images arising in their minds.
- You can test your ability to make “imageries” in your mind. Close your eyes and try to imagine a red apple in your mind. Some can, and some cannot. Some people can go through past experiences in vivid detail (even with color).
- We have discussed a similar and related phenomenon of HSAM: “Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM).”
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In the suttas, what is mentioned in most cases is that “a certain Deva came to see the Buddha, and the light of that Deva lighted up the vicinity of Jetavanaramaya.”
- See, for example, “Oghataraṇa Sutta (SN 1.1)“: “Then, late at night, a glorious deity, lighting up the entire Jeta’s Grove, went up to the Buddha, bowed, stood to one side, and said to him,…”
I have not seen a sutta specifically state that people saw a Deva‘s body.
- However, if they want to, they can “make up a dense body for the humans to see them.”
- There is a sutta that says the following. Once, a Deva came to see the Buddha and “could not balance his subtle, almost weightless body and was having a hard time standing up.” So, the Buddha asked the Deva to “make up a dense body so that he could stand firm.” I don’t recall the name of the sutta.
By the way, there are many suttas, roughly from SN 1.1 (above sutta) to SN 6.10, that describe the visits of various Devas and Brahmas to see and discuss dhamma concepts with the Buddha.
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