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Lang asked: “So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right?”
- Yes. I had not expressed this correctly in my initial response. I just revised it to make it clear.
- “samphassa-ja-vedana” arises due to “distorted sanna” for those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya.
Lang asked: “I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”
- Yes. You could say that. Anyone born with a human body will have the “kama sanna” common to all of us: Sugar or a nice meal tastes good, feces smells bad while a rose smells good, there are handsome men and beautiful women, etc.
Lang wrote:
“So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):
…salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha …”
- Yes. Attachment is to samphassa-ja-vedana.” I highlighted that to make it clear.
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Lang asked:
“Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:
sanna –> vedana –> tanha
Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”
- What you wrote, “sanna –> vedana –> tanha” can be written as “distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha”
- In the suttas just “sanna” appears. Those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya ALWAYS attach to the “samphassa-ja-vedana” generated by that “distorted sanna.” I like to use “distorted sanna” to emphasize that it is not real. However, it is built into our bodies via Paticca Samuppada; thus, it feels real!
1. Q1. Does pabhassara citta start in kama or rupa or arupa dhatu? Or it just does not start in any dhatu?
- Pabhassara citta is not present in any dhatu (kama dhatu, rupa dhatu, or arupa dhatu; those are the “initial state of mind upon receiving a sensory input or arammana.)
- To clarify further, the mind of someone born in kama loka (humans, including Arahants who were born human) will always fall on kama dhatu first. A rupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on rupa dhatu, and an arupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on arupa dhatu.
- Furthermore, if a human is in a rupacavara jhana, his mind will also fall on rupa dhatu upon receiving a new arammana.
This figure from “Vipariṇāma – Two Meanings.”
- As you can see, the “pabhassara citta” does not fall into any of the three “dhatu” or “loka.”
- It is experienced only at the Arahant-phala moment or later in “Arahant-phala samapatti.”
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2. step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”
- This description is correct.
- The bahidda vinnana has “distorted sanna” but no defilements (raga, dosa, moha.)
- We mainly restrict our general discussions to kama dhatu, especially in the following.
- Bahidda vinnana becomes an ajjhatta vinnana in a split second for anyone with the five lower samyojana. Thus, an Arahant or Anagami would not enter the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.
The above chart is from “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
Once get into the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage, a mind can further contaminate rapidly via several stages, as shown in the above chart.
- Those steps are listed in #10 of the above post. They are essentially the same as Dosakkhayo listed in steps 1 through 5.
- That “expansion” is indicated in the chart.
- Up to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the expansion is slow, i.e., kamma accumulation is slow. But at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, one starts accumulating kamma consciously (with vaci and kaya abhisankhara.) That is why it is called the “nava (new) kamma” stage. Kammic energies to bring vipaka in future lives are generated here.
- As shown in the chart, kamma accumulation accelerates with kamacchanda, kama parilaha, etc., ending with dasa akusala.
- See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details.
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I thought of providing a bit more information to make things clear.
The question was: “Furthermore, can bahiddha rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancakkhandha, and, in the same way, can ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancupadanakkhanda?”
- The “pure pancakkhandha” would have no defilements (raga, dosa, moha) and also no “distortions.” That is the same as the “pabhassara citta” we discussed.
- That arises for the first time when one attains the Arahant phala.
- After attaining the Arahant phala, the mind returns to the “kama dhatu” stage with uppatti bhavanga that one was born with.
- Some Arahants can get back to the “Arahant phala citta” or “pabhassara citta,” at later times, which is called “Arahant phala samapatti.”
Unless an Arahant is in a jhana or Arahant phala samapatti, their mind is in the uppatti bhavanga they were born with.
- Then, upon getting a sensory input, their minds also receive the “kama sanna” associated with any human uppatti bhavanga. That is the “bahidda vinnana” state (with the corresponding “distorted sanna” and the rupa, which is also “distorted” per that sanna.) That is why it is not the same as “pure pancakkhandha.”
- However, Arahant‘s mind will not get to the next stage of “ajjhatta vinnana” because it will not attach to the “distorted sanna” or specifically “distorted kama sanna” in this case.
- For a puthujjana, the “ajjhatta vinnana” is only the starting point of mind contamination. It can get further defiled within a fraction of a second, depending on the “kama gati” present at that time. It can go through several stages of contamination before it becomes “vinnana upadanakkhandha” (which is simply referred to as “vinnana” in most suttas.)
That contamination process is discussed in the following posts:
- Each Citta Starts with Distorted Saññā (with chart B2)
- Contamination of the Human Mind Based on a Sensory Input (with chart B3)
- Contamination of a Human Mind – Detailed Analysis (with chart B3)
Those posts are in the section: “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind“
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The following sutta explains that all magga phala are attained by contemplating the “anicca, dukkha, roga, gaṇḍa, salla, aghato, ābādhato, parato palokato suññato anatta” nature of pañcupādānakkhandhā (written simply as rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana in almost all suttas.)
- “Sīlavanta Sutta (SN 22.122)“
- Of course, the English translation in the link has many errors, especially regarding anicca and anatta!
The following sutta explains that all magga phala are attained by contemplating the “anicca, dukkha, roga, gaṇḍa, salla, aghato, ābādhato, parato palokato suññato anatta” nature of pañcupādānakkhandhā (written simply as rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana in almost all suttas.)
- “Sīlavanta Sutta (SN 22.122)“
- Of course, the English translation in the link has many errors, especially regarding anicca and anatta!
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Pathavi, apo, tejo, and vayo do not arise by themselves.
- It is always a suddhāṭṭhaka that is created by javana citta.
- A suddhāṭṭhaka has eight components: Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo and vanna, gandha, rasa, oja.
- But the composition changes according to the gati of the mind that is generating javana citta.
For example, a rock is made of suddhāṭṭhaka with pathavi as the major constituent. On the other hand, water is made of suddhāṭṭhaka with apo as the principal constituent.
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OK. Yes. It is fine to remind me if I miss to address a comment.
No. The “pure pancakkhandha” can arise only when an Arahant is in Arahant phala samapatti.
- That is only when “distorted sanna” does not arise even in an Arahant.
- Even though “distorted sanna” does not have raga, dosa, or moha, it still does not depict the “real nature.”
I see. But the only way to remove asmi mana is to cultivate the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature.
- In fact, once one gets rid of the mundane wrong views (ten types of miccha ditthi), all other steps I mentioned involve that.
- Several suttas state that it is the contemplation of anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature that leads to all the magga phala.
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Maintenance of the physical body (and the manomaya kaya) is by kammic energy.
- Generation of the utuja kaya is an automatic process associated with any manomaya kaya/physical body.
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” Asmi mana goes away only at the Arahant stage.
– However, asmi mana will also decrease gradually as you make progress. It is not a sudden drop.”I wrote that in my first comment above.
Getting there is a step-by-step process.
1. Getting rid of mundane wrong views (ten types of miccha ditthi) is first. Such wrong views include not believing in kamma/kamma vipaka and rebirth. Because one cannot understand Buddha Dhamma without that basis.
2. Next is to get rid of deeper wrong views, especially sakkaya ditthi. Having sakkaya ditthi means believing that sensory pleasures can be rewarding. By doing that, one gets to the Sotapanna stage.
3. Next is to eliminate kama raga at the Anagami stage. When one understands how “distorted sanna” leads to attachment to sensory pleasures, kama raga automatically disappears.
4. Asmi mana (or the sense of “me” and “I”) goes away only at the Arahant stage.
However, all those gradually decrease as one learns Dhamma and tries to live it, i.e., live a moral life.
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Of course, those translations are wrong in numerous cases.
- For example, just translating “rupa” as form is lunacy, which they do in many suttas. “Rupa” in most suttas refers to a “mind-generated defiled versions (e.g., “cakkhu vinneyya rupa“) of external rupa“ and those can be stopped from arising (rupa nirodha).
- That is clearly stated in many suttas. See, for example, “Rūpaaññāṇa Sutta (SN 33.1).” The verse, “Rūpe kho, vaccha, aññāṇā, rūpasamudaye aññāṇā, rūpanirodhe aññāṇā, rūpanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya aññāṇā evamimāni anekavihitāni diṭṭhigatāni loke uppajjanti—..” means “Vaccha, it is because one does not understand (aññāṇā) the origin, cessation, and the way to cessation (Noble Path) of “cakkhu vinneyya rupa” (for example), that one will embrace various wrong views…” Of course, that explains how future suffering arises.
The subsequent suttas explain the same for the cessation of vedana, sanna, etc. For example, the next sutta in the series “Vedanāaññāṇa Sutta (SN 33.2)” states the same about vedana.
- However, do all vedana stop arising after attaining Arahanthood? Of course not.
- One must know enough to explain that “vedana” here refers ONLY to “samphassa-ja-vedana” or ‘mind-made defiled vedana.”
- This is why “word-by-word” translations are dangerous!
We are concerned about suddhatthaka or dhammā generation that happens with javana citta in a defiled mind. So, it should not occur for an Arahant.
- However, it is possible that suddhatthaka generation may occur via other mechanisms. I am not sure about that. The Buddha described things only relevant to the issue of suffering.
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Very good, Taryal and TGS! But we can dig a bit deeper.
1. This sutta is specifically about “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā,” i.e., those entities that arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda arise due to causes and conditions and, therefore, can be stopped from arising.
- Obviously, the Buddha (and Arahants) have done that.
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda are “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.” See “Paccaya Sutta (SN 12.20).”
2. Another set of entities (dhammā) that DO NOT arise for a Buddha (and Arahants) are rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna in pañcupādānakkhandhā (pañca upādānakkhandhā).
- Since five entities have stopped arising in Buddha, rupa DO NOT imply rupa in the external world. They refer to “rupa” that arise in the mind together with defilements. Obviously, the Buddha can see, hear, smell, etc., things in the external world.
- Similarly, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna DO NOT refer to all vedana (only samphassa-jā-vedanā), all saññā (only upādāna for saññā), all saṅkhāra (only abhisaṅkhāra), or all viññāna (only kamma viññāna.)
- Those five entities can also be written as rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha.
3. In the “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)” all five entities in #2 are listed, but only five from #1 are listed.
4. We can also relate to the material discussed regarding “distorted saññā” in the sections “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” and “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- The root cause for the arising of rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha is the arising of ajjhatta rupa, ajjhatta vedanā, ajjhatta saññā, ajjhatta saṅkhāra, and ajjhatta viññāṇa BASED ON “distorted saññā.“
- It may have become apparent to some. But it will hopefully become more evident in the upcoming posts.
P.S. I see that TripleGemStudent posted a comment about #2 above. Very good!
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The translation at Sutta Central: “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)”
The key verse to be understood is:
“katihi nu kho, bhante, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharatī”ti?”
Sutta Central translation: “Sir, how many things has the Realized One escaped from, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits?”
AccesstoInsight translation Taryal provided: “Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?”
The Buddha stated: “Dasahi kho, vāhana, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati. Katamehi dasahi?” OR “Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits.” (Sutta Central translation).
Then, the sutta says there are ten things that the Buddha (tathāgato) is free from: Rūpena kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati, vedanāya kho, vāhana …pe… saññāya kho, vāhana … saṅkhārehi kho, vāhana … viññāṇena kho, vāhana … jātiyā kho, vāhana … jarāya kho, vāhana … maraṇena kho, vāhana … dukkhehi kho, vāhana … kilesehi kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
Can anyone point out how to express those ten things? I think the answers should come from you all rather than me.
- This is what is involved in insight meditation!
