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OK. Yes. It is fine to remind me if I miss to address a comment.
No. The “pure pancakkhandha” can arise only when an Arahant is in Arahant phala samapatti.
- That is only when “distorted sanna” does not arise even in an Arahant.
- Even though “distorted sanna” does not have raga, dosa, or moha, it still does not depict the “real nature.”
I see. But the only way to remove asmi mana is to cultivate the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature.
- In fact, once one gets rid of the mundane wrong views (ten types of miccha ditthi), all other steps I mentioned involve that.
- Several suttas state that it is the contemplation of anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature that leads to all the magga phala.
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Maintenance of the physical body (and the manomaya kaya) is by kammic energy.
- Generation of the utuja kaya is an automatic process associated with any manomaya kaya/physical body.
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” Asmi mana goes away only at the Arahant stage.
– However, asmi mana will also decrease gradually as you make progress. It is not a sudden drop.”I wrote that in my first comment above.
Getting there is a step-by-step process.
1. Getting rid of mundane wrong views (ten types of miccha ditthi) is first. Such wrong views include not believing in kamma/kamma vipaka and rebirth. Because one cannot understand Buddha Dhamma without that basis.
2. Next is to get rid of deeper wrong views, especially sakkaya ditthi. Having sakkaya ditthi means believing that sensory pleasures can be rewarding. By doing that, one gets to the Sotapanna stage.
3. Next is to eliminate kama raga at the Anagami stage. When one understands how “distorted sanna” leads to attachment to sensory pleasures, kama raga automatically disappears.
4. Asmi mana (or the sense of “me” and “I”) goes away only at the Arahant stage.
However, all those gradually decrease as one learns Dhamma and tries to live it, i.e., live a moral life.
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Of course, those translations are wrong in numerous cases.
- For example, just translating “rupa” as form is lunacy, which they do in many suttas. “Rupa” in most suttas refers to a “mind-generated defiled versions (e.g., “cakkhu vinneyya rupa“) of external rupa“ and those can be stopped from arising (rupa nirodha).
- That is clearly stated in many suttas. See, for example, “Rūpaaññāṇa Sutta (SN 33.1).” The verse, “Rūpe kho, vaccha, aññāṇā, rūpasamudaye aññāṇā, rūpanirodhe aññāṇā, rūpanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya aññāṇā evamimāni anekavihitāni diṭṭhigatāni loke uppajjanti—..” means “Vaccha, it is because one does not understand (aññāṇā) the origin, cessation, and the way to cessation (Noble Path) of “cakkhu vinneyya rupa” (for example), that one will embrace various wrong views…” Of course, that explains how future suffering arises.
The subsequent suttas explain the same for the cessation of vedana, sanna, etc. For example, the next sutta in the series “Vedanāaññāṇa Sutta (SN 33.2)” states the same about vedana.
- However, do all vedana stop arising after attaining Arahanthood? Of course not.
- One must know enough to explain that “vedana” here refers ONLY to “samphassa-ja-vedana” or ‘mind-made defiled vedana.”
- This is why “word-by-word” translations are dangerous!
We are concerned about suddhatthaka or dhammā generation that happens with javana citta in a defiled mind. So, it should not occur for an Arahant.
- However, it is possible that suddhatthaka generation may occur via other mechanisms. I am not sure about that. The Buddha described things only relevant to the issue of suffering.
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Very good, Taryal and TGS! But we can dig a bit deeper.
1. This sutta is specifically about “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā,” i.e., those entities that arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda arise due to causes and conditions and, therefore, can be stopped from arising.
- Obviously, the Buddha (and Arahants) have done that.
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda are “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.” See “Paccaya Sutta (SN 12.20).”
2. Another set of entities (dhammā) that DO NOT arise for a Buddha (and Arahants) are rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna in pañcupādānakkhandhā (pañca upādānakkhandhā).
- Since five entities have stopped arising in Buddha, rupa DO NOT imply rupa in the external world. They refer to “rupa” that arise in the mind together with defilements. Obviously, the Buddha can see, hear, smell, etc., things in the external world.
- Similarly, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna DO NOT refer to all vedana (only samphassa-jā-vedanā), all saññā (only upādāna for saññā), all saṅkhāra (only abhisaṅkhāra), or all viññāna (only kamma viññāna.)
- Those five entities can also be written as rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha.
3. In the “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)” all five entities in #2 are listed, but only five from #1 are listed.
4. We can also relate to the material discussed regarding “distorted saññā” in the sections “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” and “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- The root cause for the arising of rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha is the arising of ajjhatta rupa, ajjhatta vedanā, ajjhatta saññā, ajjhatta saṅkhāra, and ajjhatta viññāṇa BASED ON “distorted saññā.“
- It may have become apparent to some. But it will hopefully become more evident in the upcoming posts.
P.S. I see that TripleGemStudent posted a comment about #2 above. Very good!
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The translation at Sutta Central: “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)”
The key verse to be understood is:
“katihi nu kho, bhante, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharatī”ti?”
Sutta Central translation: “Sir, how many things has the Realized One escaped from, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits?”
AccesstoInsight translation Taryal provided: “Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?”
The Buddha stated: “Dasahi kho, vāhana, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati. Katamehi dasahi?” OR “Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits.” (Sutta Central translation).
Then, the sutta says there are ten things that the Buddha (tathāgato) is free from: Rūpena kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati, vedanāya kho, vāhana …pe… saññāya kho, vāhana … saṅkhārehi kho, vāhana … viññāṇena kho, vāhana … jātiyā kho, vāhana … jarāya kho, vāhana … maraṇena kho, vāhana … dukkhehi kho, vāhana … kilesehi kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
Can anyone point out how to express those ten things? I think the answers should come from you all rather than me.
- This is what is involved in insight meditation!
Hadaya vatthu can generate suddhatthaka and also kammic energies below the suddhatthaka level (dhammā.)
- Those at or above the suddhatthaka level are released to the physical world as utuja rupa while javana cittas arise.
- Those below the suddhatthaka level are released to vinnana dhatu as dhammā while javana cittas arise. Then such kammic energies (dhammā) stay in vinnana dhatu until their vipakas are brought; they decay with time, and some become nullified without bringing vipaka.
Regarding the question: “I would like to know how the manomaya kaya gives commands to the physical body.”
- The manomaya kaya has a blueprint of the physical body. The physical body grows according to that blueprint. As the physical body grows, manomaya kaya (also called a “kirana kaya” because it is a subtle body, essentially the gandhabba) also “expands.” The brain in the physical body overlaps “the brain” in the manomaya kaya and transfers the processed information on sensory inputs to the manomaya kaya. The hadaya vatthu gets that information via the manomaya kaya.
- It would be the reverse process when the hadaya vatthu sends commands to the brain, for example, to move body parts.
Yes. Those are good summaries.
#6 can be improved.
- Vinnanakkhandha synthesizes the above four (nama and rupa).
- Bahidda vinnana (vipaka vinnana) = only nama; ajjhatta vinnana (kamma vinnana) is the beginning of making namarupa.
- That “namarupa formation” enhances as the mind gets further contaminated in subsequent steps.
#7: Rupakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha help distinguish between nama, rupa, and namarupa (with kamma vinnana).
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Yes. That is a good point.
- All five entities in pancupadanakkhandha (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) are of 11 types: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.” There, “ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā” refers to the ajjhatta rupa and bahidda rupa. The same applies to the other four entities. All those ajjhatta and bahidda entities occur in the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages at the beginning of a sensory attachment process.
- See “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48).”
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Dosakhayo asked: “So, the altered rupa is bahidda rupa, and cakkuvinneyya rupa is ajjhatta rupa?”
Yes. That can be understood as follows.
1. The “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ includes both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages.
2. In #10 of that post, one way to describe the gradual attachment process (within a citta vithi) is stated: “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo, kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando,..” Here, ““Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā” represent the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” is the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage. That ajjhatta viññāṇa stage will occur for anyone with kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana, i.e., anyone below the Anagami stage.
3. That same process is described differently in the “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148)” (as described in the other post I mentioned “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa”) as “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.”
4. Both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages are included in the “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ” step in that representation.
5. After the “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” step comes “kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando.” This is the second step (tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso) in the other representation of the same event: “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.” This step happens based on the “saṅ gati” present at that moment. Thus, even for the same person, the level of attachment depends on the state of the mind at that moment.
6. Note the difference in #2 and #5.
- #2: Regardless of the mindset, ANYONE below the Anagami stage WILL generate the ajjhatta viññāṇa.
- #5: However, a strong attachment to the sensory input with kāmacchanda may not happen for someone in a calm mindset trying to be mindful. Controlling this step with “mindfulness” (sila) can gradually eliminate kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. Of course, cultivating wisdom (paññā) is also needed. As one cultivates paññā and sila, one’s mind will get to samādhi. That, in turn, will help further cultivate paññā and sila, and so on to elevate all three: sila, samādhi, paññā. Eventually, it is paññā that breaks the kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. That is the Satipatthana/Anapanasati Bhavana!
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Yes. Saññā can be of many types.
- Some (kāma saññā) can lead to “defiled actions, speech, and thoughts” or “kamma accumulation” that can bring their vipaka in the future.
- However, some saññā depend on our viewing angle (like in the case of your pictures), and they do not necessarily lead to kamma accumulation. Of course, such confusion can be a hindrance to “samadhi.”
The first two pictures of Tobi provide good examples of how the same picture can lead to two different saññā.
- Labeling in the second set makes it easier to “see” (i.e., provide the saññā) of a young man and a young woman.
- Now, replace the two labels “ear” and “chin” with “eye” and “nose.” Then you can “see” an old man and an old woman.
I have seen the “young/old woman” picture in a book. I don’t remember the name of the book.
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Cakkhu viññāṇa in “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ is already an ajjhatta viññāṇa. However, nava kamma (with strong kammic energy) accumulation starts after the “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso” step.
- That may not be explained well in the old posts like “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa.”
It is explained better in the newer post, “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.” See #6 of that post.
- I need to go out for a few hours. You can read those two posts carefully and ask further questions. I will have more time later to explain it better if you have questions.
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