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Your post is fine, Lang. Good explanation.
– I did not see a link on Niramisa sukha. Don’t worry about it.” I’m dead AND in full Nibbana so why am I called an Arahant and the Buddha is called a Buddha?”
What does that even mean? After Paribbana, there is no Buddha or an Arahant!
– These days we refer to a Buddha who lived 2600 years ago. He is not there (in this world) anymore. But there lived a Buddha and there lived many Arahants within the past 2600 years.This is why I say this type of questioning doesn’t go anywhere. After all this discussion, you have not understood what is meant by Nibbana/Parinibbana.
This reminds me of the never-ending discussion at the Dhamma Wheel discussion forum on Nibbana:
“the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread”
– Those people who have made comments on that thread have no basic understanding of Buddha Dhamma. It is funny (and saddening at the same time) to read some of those comments.The answer to that is a bit deeper.
Nibbana is attained by removing the ten “bonds” to this world (samyojana).
Breaking those bonds is done while one lives human life, whether as a Bodhisatta or just a normal person. A Bodhisatta learns the way by himself. All others follow that path found by a Bodhisatta.
– Not all humans are the same. They have flaws. A Bodhisatta (who has made preparations for the attainment of the Buddhahood over an unimaginable time) would have fewer flaws than most other humans. Each person’s current life (health, wealth, etc.) depends on past causes. But as long as one can cultivate sufficient wisdom (panna) by learning Dhamma, one would be able to break those “samsaric bonds”.
– But in the end, once those bonds are broken, they all achieve the same goal, i.e., not be reborn in any of the 31 realms. That is what Nibbana is.It may be a good idea to read the following post regarding Bodhisattas:
“Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?”Eventually, answers to questions of this type require a bit more advancement on the eightfold path.
– I am not trying to evade questions. But the point is that no matter how intelligent a person is, that does not count much towards making progress in learning Buddha Dhamma unless one understands the basic concepts. I have some friends who are scientists but are not able to understand some concepts. I hope you are different. You are at least curious. Some of those friends of mine do not show any interest. They are too busy!Hello Brett,
The Buddha or any Ararahnt would not have even a trace of “defilements” (greed, hate/anger/ignorance) left in their minds.
– However, Arahants may have some leftover habits that some people may consider unsuitable for an Arahant. There are some accounts of that in the Tipitaka. Once a young Arahant was walking with a layperson and they came across a mud puddle on the road. The young Arahant jumped over the puddle and the layperson immediately thought, “Oh, this bhikkhu cannot be an Arahant.” It turned out that the young Arahant had been born a monkey in the recent past. It was a “harmless habit” of his to jump over things at times.
– A Buddha would not have even such minor “character flaws.”However, upon Parinibbana, Buddha or an Arahant attains the same Nibbana.
Brett had asked earlier a question that I just saw: “I also do not understand you saying there is no soul but at the same going on describing the lifestream exactly the way I think of the soul. Perhaps were you referring to the idea of many that their soul is their personality reborn?”
The difference is as follows:
– A soul is usually defined as “the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.”– But a lifestream is NOT immortal. It ends at the Parinibbana as an Arahant.
Brett wrote: “Obviously (full) Nibbana implies no matter and it does not exist either, at least in the original sense of the word “to exist”. Exist comes from the Latin root ex (forth) and Sistere (caused to stand), thus existence is to emerge, to come out.. ”
The main point to understand is that “exist” as you defined above is defined with the nomenclature of “this world of 31 realms.”
– Such words cannot describe ANYTHING to define Nibbana.
– Nibbana and “this world of 31 realms” are mutually exclusive.The main point to understand is that suffering will not go away within the rebirth process (keep “coming back” to this world of 31 realms.)
– Suffering stops when that process is stopped.
– That is what Cubibobi referred to as “burdened with a FUTURE body.” A “future body” just means a rebirth.When one attains a perfectly purified mind that leads to BOTH types of Nibbana.
P.S. Thaks for the comments, Lang.
More information on that (citta, cetasika, rupa, Nibbana) at, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhammā – Introduction“That is what I explained above with “saupadisesa Nibbana” and “anupadisesa Nibbana.”
A living Arahant would have a purified mind. He/she still lives in this world with a purified mind.
– At the death of the physical body (Parinibbana or “full Nibbana“) that lifestream will cease to exist in this suffering-filled world.That last part is hard to understand for most people. They evaluate things based on the human experience, which may not appear to be “filled with suffering.”
– But human existence is very short in the rebirth process. Most births are in the four lowest realms (apayas) filled with suffering.Where do I say something to the effect for you to say: “The way it is stated one reads that there is a mind before and after.”?
There is no contradiction. After the death of an Arahant, there is no mind, no hadaya vatthu.
The mind (and hadaya vatthu) are associated with “this world of 31 realms.”
Nibbana does not belong to this world of 31 realms. As long as existence continues in this world, suffering does not end.
I have explained that in many posts:
“Nibbāna“You are right, Tobias. There is only one dhammatā, which is dhammaniyāmatā. The sutta you referenced explains that.
It seems that the five “five dhammatā” was made up by someone in a commentary. It could be Visuddhimagga, but I am not sure.
– If a key principle is not referenced in the Tipitaka, it is safe to assume that it was made up by someone at a later time.I had come across a discourse by Waharaka Thero which addresses this issue about the “five dhammatā“. For the benefit of those who can understand the Sinhala language here is the link:
“කර්මය, නියාම ධර්ම”
– Explanation within the first 30 minutes.Hello Brett,
The key point is with this part of your comment: “Nibbana is pure mind beyond matter.”
Upon attaining Arahanthood, that Arahant’s mind becomes pure. That is called the “saupadisesa Nibbana” or “Nibbana with residue.” That is because the Arahant still lives with that physical body and hadaya vatthu.
– However, at the moment of the death of the physical body, the “mental body” (gandhabba) with the hadaya vatthu comes out of that dead body and dies too. Normally, when a hadaya vatthu associated with a given bhava (existence) dies, a new hadaya vatthu is created by kammic energy, if there is any anusaya left.
– Since the Arahant has no “defiled gati” or anusaya left, a new hadaya vatthu will not be created in this case. Therefore, that lifestream ends, and that is Nibbana! It is called “anupadisesa Nibbaba” or “Nibbaba without any residue.”The key point here is that hadaya vatthu is not eternal. When a lifestream switches from one existence (say human existence) to another existence (say, Deva or animal), a new hadaya vatthu matching that new existence will arise due to corresponding kammic energy.
Brett wrote: “According to some traditions, the highest one can aspire to is to become a Boddhisattva which implies renouncing Nirvana until all sentient beings have been saved.”
Yes. That is a problem with the Mahayana version. The link provided by Tobias above addresses that question. Thank you, Tobias.
Brett asked: “The other questions relate to “matter” creation by the mind. I can see how we create our world within the existing one but how about the universe itself, planets, stars, etc. these must be created by higher minds then? So what is your view on how the universe(s) come and go?
That is a good question. It has been asked in different forms at this forum.
– You may want to read the post, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” first.
– Then there is a long discussion at, “Post on “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”Brett asked: “And if the mind creates matter (suddhatakka) but the mind itself is matter (Hadaya Vathu), even if Gatis, which are also of the mind, bring about dhamma, then logically it is consciousness itself that creates matter…?”
– Yes. It is a cyclical process. That is why it never ends until attaining Arahanthood (Nibbana.)
Of course, the process ends only for that lifestream. Since there are infinite beings, the process itself will continue.Brett has asked a question in response to a comment by me above on January 28, 2020, at 2:08 pm.
The question is as follows:
****
Following is taken from your posts:The mind does not exist just by itself. There must be at least a trace of matter for the mind to exist.
7. Thus to attain Nibbāna is to attain the perfectly purified mind, which refuses to be burden with a physical body that leads to decay and rebirth repeatedly (and thus to dukkha).
8. In the 31 realms, one is born with a dense body (kāma loka), fine-material body (rūpa loka), or only a trace of “matter” in the form of “gati” (arūpa loka). When the mind becomes free of a “body” anywhere in the 31 realms, that is Nibbāna. This is another way to understand Nibbāna
if the mind requires matter to be then what exactly is pure mind?? just Hadaya Vathu?
****Hadaya vatthu is NOT the mind. It is the “seat of the mind.”
A mind is not “ON” at all times. Only when a sensory input comes in via one of the six sensory inputs does the mind “turns on.”
So, it is a bit deeper issue of what is meant by a “pure mind.”
– A given lifestream has ever-changing “gati” (related to “anusaya” or hidden defilements) associated with it.
– When the Noble Eightfold Path is followed, those anusaya gradually fade away. At Arahanthood, there will be none left.
– That is when the mind becomes “totally pure.”
– In other words, when a sensory input comes into such a pure mind, it will not respond by defiled actions.You can read posts on “gati” and ‘anusaya” by searching with the “Search” box on the top right.
– Please feel free to ask questions. It is a good question.
