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OK. It is done.
You can switch between the dark mode and the regular mode by clicking the “crescent Moon” icon to the bottom right.
It is a good idea to use the dark mode at night (easier for the eyes). Thanks again for the suggestion. I have been too lazy to look to implement that capability.
Please comment if there are any issues.
Yes. It is a good idea. Especially at night, the dark mode is good for the eyes.
We will look into how to get it done. Thanks.
This is frustrating.
OK. I should have said, ”The sixth process that Tobias referred to, “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ” initiated by a manōdvāravajjana citta.. It is not NECESSARILY a good or bad kamma vipaka. It is a “functional citta” that can arise as needed.” (I did not have NECESSARILY there.)
But anyone should be able to understand what I meant, with my detailed explanation.
Anyway, this is my last comment, unless there are other issues.
Daniel wrote: “According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, some Citta Vitthi do not even go to the stage of “Pancadvara citta”, e.g. the very slight object at page 161.”
– ALL 15 types listed on p. 161 are listed under “Pancadvara citta vithi”. However, if that arammana is very weak, the pancadvara does not even open. The bhavanga tries to break off but does not, and goes back to the “bhavanga state.”Daniel asked: “But Bhikkhu Bodhi also calls the” Vibrational Bhavanga citta” a resultant, which I translate as vipaka?”
– Bhavanga vibration is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana or a manōdvāravajjana arammana.Daniel asked: “It would mean the dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is not a vipaka?”
– I explained above that my initial premise was not correct. The premise was that all sensory inputs are due to kamma vipaka. I made that statement you quoted based on that wrong premise.
– Here is the bottom line: A sensory event (in any realm) can take place as a vipaka or it can happen due to other reasons. Please read my comments carefully before commenting. Otherwise, it can get confusing. A dhamma that initiates the cuti-patisandhi transition in arupa-realm is a vipaka but there can be other sensory inputs that are not vipaka. To repeat: A sensory event is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana or a manōdvāravajjana citta, and those are functional citta; see the Table on p. 43 of CMA book.I had made a basic error of assuming that all sensory events occur due to kamma vipaka.
– Of course, bad (and good) kamma (actions) are likely to bring vipaka in the future.However, bad (and good) sensory experiences can happen due to many reasons. Kamma vipaka is only one cause. I am not sure why I did not even think about that.
The Buddha explained that in, for example, “Sīvaka Sutta (SN 36.21)“.
– One English translation there: “36.21. Sivaka”As I mentioned above, a sensory event is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana citta or a manōdvāravajjana citta.
– Those two are categorized as “functional citta” in Table 1.3, p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (CMA) mentioned above. Those are NOT direct kusala/akusala vipaka.
– That is probably what Daniel referred to as well.So, all six processes (per MN 148 that Tobias listed in the first post on this thread) are initiated by those “two functional citta”.
– The sixth process that Tobias referred to, “manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃ” initiated by a manōdvāravajjana citta.. It is not a good or bad kamma vipaka. It is a “functional citta” that can arise as needed.I guess there is nothing to be revised in the post that Tobias referred to: “Akusala Citta and Akusala Vipāka Citta”
– I have split the post into two sections (akusala citta and akusala vipaka citta) in that post.
– Please let me know if it needs any revision or if there are further questions.Thanks, Daniel.
I had forgotten about the types of vipaka citta that you mentioned in the second part of your comment.
– Need to think about how that would factor in.
– Again, my focus is to figure out how a vipaka brings in a sensory input.We may get a clue to this by looking at how a sensory event (a citta vithi) starts.
1. A pañcadvāra citta vithi starts when a pañcadvāravajjana citta disturbs the bhavanga state and makes it “come off the static “bhavaṅga state”. That takes three thought moments of AB (atita bhavaṅga), BC (bhavaṅga calana), BU (bhavaṅga upaccheda). Here “atita” (or “atheetha“) means “past,” “calana” (pronounced “chalana“) means “move” or “vibrate,” and “upaccheda” (or “upachchéda“) means “stop” or “break away.”
– That is explained in #4 of the post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
– The same thing happens for a manōdvāra citta vīthi as explained further down in that post.
– By the way, I just revised that post too. I have addressed the issue of a “bhavaṅga citta” there too.2. The point here is that a new citta vithi based on a new arammana is NOT initiated by a cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, ..mano vinnana citta.
– It is initiated by a pañcadvāravajjana citta or a manōdvāra citta3. I am still not clear about the whole process. But the above is something to think about.
Yes, Lang. It is very difficult to overcome those views (ditthi) that have been in families for generations. But, hopefully, at least some will be able to spend time and see that Buddha’s description of the “wider world” must be true.
All religions are based on “lokiya concepts”.
– Those were all initiated by humans with the “nicca view” and “nicca sanna“. They try to come up with a permanent existence (in a heavenly realm).Buddha Dhamma is a worldview discovered by the Buddha. His was not a conjecture; he saw all those realms and interacted with beings in those realms.
“On page 127, you can see that “investigating consciousness” does not only perform the function of “investigating” inside a CV, but also the function of Bhavanga, which might be what we are looking for..”
-No. We are looking for a manodvara vipaka citta.
– That would correspond to the “eye-consciousness” etc. that come through the five physical senses as vipaka. You see those five listed in the Table on p. 43.P.S. Bhavanga is “state of the mind” at a given time. It is not a citta. I have referred to two posts on bhavanga.
Comments by Daniel:
Daniel: “In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article.”
– Yes. They are also listed on p. 43 Table 1.3 in CMA (book by Bhikkhu Bodhi).
– There 5 more for wholesome-vipaka listed in the same Table.
– All those come through the 5 physical senses.Daniel: “Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.”
– Those are NOT the initial vipaka citta. They are two cittas that follow the vipaka citta in a citta vithi with 17 citta representing a sense input coming through the 5 physical senses; see. p. 155 of CMA.
– So, those two citta are NOT vipaka citta initiating a manodvara process.What I am saying is that there is no citta on Table 1.3 representing a vipaka citta coming through the manodvara.
– If you look at the 6 processes that Tobias posted in his first post at the top of this thread:
cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpē ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ,
sōtañca paṭicca saddē ca uppajjāti sōtaviññāṇaṃ,
ghānañca paṭicca gandhē ca uppajjāti ghānaviññāṇaṃ ,
jivhañca paṭicca rasē ca uppajjāti jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
kāyañca paṭicca phōṭṭhabbē ca uppajjāti kāyaviññāṇaṃ,
manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃthere is no vipaka citta representing the 6th process that I highlighted above in Table 1.3.
– That is the issue to tackle.
– By the way, my post that Tobias referred to does not address that either. I just did not notice it at the time.Tobias asked: “I guess such a being still has a bhavanga flow?” (regarding an asanna satta).
Yes. The bhavanga is there, but no active citta vithi.
Tobias wrote: “No, a door freed citta performs the rebirth linking for every being.”
A citta DOES NOT perform rebirth linking.
– In the last citta vithi, at the fifth javana, creates the javana power to make the MINDSET (temporary bhavanga) for the kammic energy to create the next bhava. The “temporary bhavanga” is explained at: “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavaṅga” and “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!”
– Creation of the manomaya kaya i.e., the hadaya vatthu and any appropriate pasada rupa) is NOT done by a citta. It is done by kammic energy (that is why “gandhabba kaya” or “manomaya kaya” is a “kammaja kaya”).I cannot explain it any more than this right now. I need to finish the next post. But feel free to comment or raise questions.
– You and others can continue the discussion if needed. I will comment whenever I can.The statement on p. 138 of CMA:
“The object of the door-freed consciousness in any given existence is generally identical with the object of the last cognitive process in the immediately preceding existence..”Where does that “last cognitive process” comes in (for an arupavacara Brahma)?
– For a human, it can come through the five physical senses as well.Tobias: Your question (as I understood) is related to BOTH my post and Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA as I explained above.
You wrote: “I think it is remarkable that there is no akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā.”
– That is exactly the issue in my mind.
– Is it not possible that an akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā?
– I think it is not only possible but necesssary. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, a vipaka bring the next bhava can come through any of the six senses. How does an arupavacara Brahma grasp the next bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment? He has only the mind-door.
