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Thank you, Gad. It is an excellent sutta to discuss.
- Yes. Unfortunately, only relatively few strive (or even know how) to go from “darkness to light.”
- Nature’s magic show (“distorted sanna“) fools people. They think material things have kama guna, i.e., material wealth can bring long-lasting happiness: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- But it works the way. People do akusala kamma to gain and enjoy material things (for a short time) and pay dearly later.
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Your question: “But when it comes to anger, for example. Say X saw someone he/she doesn’t like.
How do we solve this with Tilakkhana?”The “anicca nature” leads to dissatisfaction in the end. That is what “anicca” means.
- Even though X would not like to see that thing, X may not be able to get rid of it. Thus, X becomes stressed.
- Now, X may be able to get rid of it by taking action. But that action is likely to involve akusala kamma (abhisankhara). For example, if the “thing” is a co-worker at the workplace, X may be able to spread a lie and get that person fired. That involved lying and thus is an akusala kamma that will bring unpleasant vipaka in the future. Thus, even if X can get rid of that person, the outcome is more suffering in the long run.
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1. We tend to immediately think about the “physical world” with stars and planets when we hear the word “world” or “cosmos.”
- However, in Buddha Dhamma, the focus is on “each person’s world.”
- That is similar to the tendency to immediately think about “physical objects” when we see the word “rupa.” However, the Buddha almost ALWAYS referred to the “mind-made rupa” presented to the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) in gandhabba. See my comment in the thread “Conscious and Subconscious Mind” today.
2. It is easier to figure out why the Buddha made those comments that Tobi quoted at the beginning of his comment about the cosmos (world/universe in science) when we realize that.
- The Buddha almost always referred to one’s world. That world exists until one attains Parinibbana as an Arahant. That is why it is incorrect to say all four things about that “world.”
- See “Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World.”
3. Regarding Tobi’s question at the end, MOST sutta translations at Sutta Central (especially regarding verses with deep meanings) are incorrect.
- That holds for most other English translations as well. See “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka“
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OK. Let us consider: “Person X getting attached to a flower in the garden.”
1. Yes. It is critical to understand the verse “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.”
- It can be separated out a bit: “Cakkhuñ ca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ.” It means “when cakkhu and a rupa come into contact cakkhu viññāṇa results.”
- Here, cakkhu is NOT the eyes; rupa DOES NOT refer to the external rupa; cakkhu viññāṇa DOES NOT only refer to “seeing” but more than “just seeing” because it may arise with a “certain expectation” (In your suggested example of looking at a flower, it could be to pluck it and take it home.)
- The eyes capture an image of the flower. The brain processes that image; during that process, the brain adds one’s likes/dislikes about such a flower to that image. That modified “rupa” is then passed onto the “cakkhu pasada rupa” (or simply “cakkhu“), which is in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba.) Those are the cakkhu and rupa in “Cakkhuñ ca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ.”
- Because that rupa is NOT a true representation of the flower in the garden. Therefore, the cakkhu viññāṇa arising in the mind sees a somewhat “distorted representation of the flower,” and that is why one’s mind may also generate a “liking for that flower.” Thus, cakkhu viññāṇa is more than just “seeing the flower.” It may prompt one to pluck it and take it home!
- You can replace the flower with a “more enticing object” (e.g., one’s favorite meal, a car one likes to buy, etc.), and you can see how thoughts of greed arise with a cakkhu viññāṇa.
2. Those are the basics one must have an idea of. More details in “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” Don’t forget to read the links referenced.
3. Those ideas are necessary to follow the recent posts in the section: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- I don’t know whether you read any of those or whether you can understand them. Those are somewhat deeper aspects of Buddha’s teachings.
- If your understanding is not at that level, try to understand the post in #2 with the information in #1. Don’t worry. Each person has to start somewhere. I just don’t know the background of a person writing a comment or asking a question.
1. You wrote: “I am confused about Chittada Kaya.” It is written as “Cittaja Kaya” and pronounced “chiththaja kaya.” I will explain that in #7 below.
2. The mind is “mano.” Thoughts that arise in the mind are sometimes called “citta” (pronounced “chiththa”) and other times vinnana.
- An easy way to remember is as follows. Usually, “citta” means uncontaminated “thoughts.” Usually, “viññāna” is reserved for thoughts contaminated with greed, anger, or ignorance (lobha, dosa, moha).
3. The physical body (“karaja kaya” or “sarira“) does not generate citta. The physical body is mostly made from the food we eat; that contribution is “aharaja kaya.” Kammic energy and also thoughts contribute only a little but play important roles; those two contributions are “kammaja kaya” and “cittaja kaya.”
4. Overlapping the dense physical body is a “manōmaya kāya,” which is more like an “energy field.” Manōmaya kāya means a “mental body.” This is more important than the physical body since that is where thoughts or citta arise. It is also called “gandhabba.”
- The above ideas are discussed in several posts. See, for example, “Manomaya Kaya (Gandhabba) and the Physical Body.”
5. Thoughts or cittas have “mental factors” (“cetasika“) embedded. A citta has at least seven cetasika: Phassa (contact); vēdanā (feeling); saññā (perception); cētanā (volition); Ekaggata (One-pointedness) can become Sammā Samādhi; jivitindriya (life faculty); manasikāra (memory).
- When it develops into a contaminated thought, it would have more cetasika, like greed.
- “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”
- You asked: “So Cittaja Kaya is Phassa, Cethana, Vinnana?” So, you can see from the above that cittaja kaya is a part of the physical body and, therefore, not directly related to phassa, cetana, viññāna.
6. In #4 above, I mentioned that thoughts (cittas) arise in the manomaya kaya (gandhabba.) The “hadaya vatthu” is part of the manomaya kaya, and that is precisely where cittas arise.
- It may take some time to put all these together. I suggest keeping notes as you read posts. Then, you will be able to see the important connections and how the pieces of the puzzle can be assembled to see a coherent picture.
- Take the time and read the above-mentioned posts and links in those posts.
- Reading the first several posts in “Abhidhamma” could be helpful too.
7. Finally, a special way to write Pali words with the English alphabet was adopted in the 1800s (this is what I mentioned in #1 above). The following two posts are necessary to understand how to write and pronounce Pali words:
“Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1
“Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 2
8. It will take an effort to grasp all these issues. It is best not to rush into it. Take the time to read the posts and take notes while you read them. That will help.
- You can also use the “Search” box on the top right to locate posts with a specific word.
- P.S. The following two posts could be helpful with definitions/pronunciations: “Pāli Glossary – (A-K)” and “Pāli Glossary – (L-Z)“.
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Tobi’s essay has some good ideas. However, there are some incompatibilities with Buddha Dhamma.
1. As Yash pointed out, “The universe is finite because we can leave it and enter Nibbāna” is incorrect.
- Nibbāna is not a physical event, like a rocket leaving the Erath. The best way to understand that is as follows. During the beginningless rebirth process, the “seat of the mind” (hadaya vatthu) is REGENERATED in a new form every time it dies. For example, a human has specific hadaya vatthu for the whole duration of that human existence (bhava), which could be many thousands of years. At the end of that “human bhava,” a new existence (say that of a Brahma) is grasped, and a new hadaya vatthu matching that of a Brahma is created by kammic energy.
- That process ends at the death of an Arahant. The mind of an Arahant WILL NOT grasp a new existence in this world, i.e., no new hadaya vatthu arises when the hadaya vatthu of an Arahant dies with his/her physical body. That is how we separate from this world.
- Attaining “final Nibbāna” is purely a mental phenomenon.
- P.S. Many posts on the website describe the hadaya vatthu; see, for example, “Mind and Matter – Buddhist Analysis.“
2. Furthermore, the main topic does not make sense. Tobi wrote, “This expanding universe is cooling down more and more as it expands.”
- This idea of an “expanding universe” is attached to the “Big Bang Theory,” which says our universe started with a “Big Bang” only about 14 billion ago. According to the Buddha, our universe has “no traceable beginning. ” Only small parts are destroyed (and re-formed) periodically in a “loka vināsaya.” See “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
3. However, I appreciate Tobi’s efforts. The essay contains many good ideas.
- It is not a good idea to try to explain “theorized” physical phenomena, such as an “expanding universe.” That does not help with cultivating the Noble Path to Nibbāna.
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1. No. Paññatti refers to the conventional “naming of things” so that people understand what a certain word means.
- Namarupa is a deep concept in Buddha Dhamma. It does not appear anywhere else.
2. A basic idea can be gleaned by looking at Paticca Samuppada.
- When X becomes interested in an arammana (say about a beautiful woman, Y) he starts generating sankharas: “avijja paccaya sankhara,” which are initially vaci sankhara (talking to himself). That starts a new expectation (kamma vinnana) to start a friendship with her: “sankhara paccaya vinnana.”
- Based on that expectation, sankhara generation intensifies, and X imagines various scenarios. The figure of Y comes to his mind often, and that is the beginning of “namarupa formation.” These thoughts involve strong javana citta that generates “namarupa” in his mind: “vinnana paccaya namarupa.” There is kammic energy generated in this process.
- That “namarupa formation” leads to “namarupa paccaya salayatana.” Now, X utilizes all his sensory faculties to pursue Y. This process goes back and forth intensifying all those factors.
3. Reading the post “Kamma Viññāṇa – Link Between Mind and Matter” could be helpful.
- “namarupa” is where “nama” (thoughts about Y) generates kammic energy (rupa) regarding his expectations of Y. That is one way to explain “namarupa” for the above scenario.
- There are different ways to look at it. Also see “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa.”
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Paññatti means “to establish conventions” to characterize things in this world so that people can communicate among themselves.
- Each language has assigned “names” for things, time, etc.
- One can get a basic idea of how to assign time by reading the “Niruttipatha Sutta (SN 22.62).”
- Another set of examples is in the “Mahānidāna Sutta (DN 15).” Here, “paññāyethā” means “without such assignments, one cannot provide meaning to a word like “adhivacana samphasso” or “paṭigha samphasso.”
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Yes. You are right, Gad.
- “The kali sutta is more about the distorted sanna that arises with Rūpa ragā or Arūpa ragā.”
- The Mulapariyaya Sutta provides a general description of everything in this world.
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Yes. The second sutta (“Kali Sutta“) states the same as the Mulapariyaya Sutta. See “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things.”
- It is good to look at various ways of presenting a concept.
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It is hard to say, but it will be up to thousands of years before the next Buddha, Buddha Maitreya, appears.
- The “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14)” discusses human lifetimes during various Buddhas.
- Huan lifetime during the Buddha Sasana of Buddha Gotama is one of the shortest.
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Yes. The Madhupindika Sutta is a critical sutta related to “distorted saññā.” I will write a post on it at some point.
- I will take a look at the other sutta. Thank you, Gad.
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There is a difference between “kappa,” “asaṅkheyya kappa,” and “maha kappa.”
- As I remember, four “asaṅkheyya kappa” are in a “maha kappa.”
- It is possible that 100,000 kappa are in an “asaṅkheyya kappa.“
- It is a matter of dividing a “maha kappa” into sub-categories.
P.S. According to “Bhikkhu_Bodhi-Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma,” by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the description is as follows (on p.198 of the pdf):
- Four “asaṅkheyya kappa” are in a “maha kappa.”
- Twenty “antara kappa” in an “asaṅkheyya kappa.“
- One “antara kappa” is the time required for the human lifespan to rise from ten years to a maximum of thousands of years (as I remember 80,000 years at least). So, the human life span goes up and down 20 times within an “asaṅkheyya kappa.” It starts at the maximum and gradually decreases to ten, then gradually increases to a maximum, and so on, twenty times!
If anyone else has more or different information, please comment.
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There is a difference between acinteyya and asaṅkheyyā.
- Acinteyya means a concept is “not amenable/graspable to average humans.” Such things can be discovered/explored only by a Buddha.
- Asaṅkheyyā specifically refers to the inability to express the magnitude of an entity with numbers. The Buddha states that the length of a maha kappa cannot be expressed in numbers. That could be because the number system at that time was not big enough to express that number, and/or the length of a maha kappa could change somewhat each time.
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I don’t think this discussion helps much.
- The suttas that Gad quoted in his initial post provide the essential sutta text.
- The interpretation of some terms could be subjective, i.e., depends on one’s views.
- But I think his original post provides a good description of the “four types of learners.”
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