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It is critical to understand the following. “Nibbana sukha” is NOT a “vedana that can be felt.”
- This world of 31 realms provides both sukha vedana and dukkha vedana. It is not possible to have just one without the other. Of course, the relative proportions can vary. For example, in the apayas, dukkha vedana is predominant. In Deva/Brahma realms, sukha vedana is predominant. In the human realm, both are present.
- The Buddha stated many times that his teachings are for the removal of arising of even a trace of dukkha. He NEVER promised to teach how to maximize “sukha vedana.”
- This rebirth process is like having a “chronic headache” that never goes away, even though, at times, a dose of painkillers can overcome it and even provide a “temporary high.” But that pain keeps coming back. If that “chronic headache” permanently disappears, one will have a huge sense of relief. That is a rough analogy for “Nibbanic sukha.”
Those who do not understand this fundamental concept are enticed by jhanic pleasures or the types of miracles one can perform with “supernormal iddhi powers.”
- “Jhanic experiences” are experiences in the Brahma realms. They are part of that “sukha/dukkha cycle.”
- What is the point of “performing miracles”? Devadatta impressed King Ajasattu by performing many miracles and ended up in an apaya.
Yet, it is hard to overcome these types of wrong views. This is human nature!
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Arahant Santati and Arahant Culapanthaka instantaneously attained iddhi powers upon attaining Arahanthood. They never cultivated jhanas.
- Also, Devadatta, a puthujjana, cultivated anariya jhana and attained iddhi powers but ended up in hell (niraya.)
- Therefore, the subjects of jhana and iddhi powers are incomprehensible to anyone but a Buddha. See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“: “jhāna visayo acinteyyo..”
- Jhana or iddhi powers may or may not be realized while cultivating the path. If one gets them, those are bonuses. That should not be the goal.
Discussing iddhi powers and/or trying to cultivate them is useless.
- It is likely that we all cultivated the highest anariya jhanas, samapattis, and iddhi powers at various times in our deep past. What do we have now to show for them?
- Until we are free from births in the apayas (i.e., attain at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage), all those “achievements” go to waste! See “Why a Sotāpanna is Better off than any King, Emperor, or a Billionaire“
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Yes. When one contemplates Dhamma concepts, one’s wisdom (panna) grows, and defilements gradually decrease. That is “Vipassana meditation.”
- That change can manifest in bodily feelings. I have experienced these effects and still do. They can get very intense before wearing out. Once one gets close to higher magga phala (above the Anagami stage), these “bodily sensations” should diminish. Then, they should become more of “mental joy” without bodily sensations.
- This is why many people are fooled by such “bodily feelings.” I have heard many people describe Jhanic experiences in various Sri Lankan programs. A common theme is that they are overjoyed by such “bodily sensations” and believe it is “Nibbanic sukha.” Most of them likely experience “anariaya jhana” even though they engage in contemplating anicca, dukkha, anatta. As I emphasize, even the first Ariya jhana can be experienced only by an Anagami, because kama raga anusaya must be removed to get to the first Ariya jhana. Unlike the Sotapanna stage, confirming the attainment of the Anagami stage is easy: Just watch an adult or X-rated movie and check whether lust does not arise!
- “Nibbana sukha” is without feelings. It is the absence of any stress.
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I recommend reading the two posts in “Elephant in the Room 2 – Jhāna and Kasina“
- Please feel free to ask questions. Point to the post and bullet number if it is a specific question about what I wrote in those two posts.
- P.S. I may need to revise those two posts to point to new posts on “distorted saññā.” Also, if there are legitimate objections, I will revise as necessary. Please don’t hesitate to comment if you see anything objectionable.
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“Only a person who has entered the jhanas can truly know. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a meditator..”
- You are saying that only those who cultivate jhana are “meditators.” These are the ingrained wrong views!
I have opened a new thread: “Discussion on ‘Cultivating Jhāna and Magga Phala – What Is the Difference?’“
- Let us continue this particular discussion on jhāna in that thread.
- Please take the time to prepare a comment. Let us focus on addressing the critical questions that I raised there.
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For others’ information, the post on “pilana”: “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)“
You wrote: “Many times, I am amazed of how some words and their lingusitic settings/contexts , passed down from generations, can be potent, provided, we are well aquianted with them and their correct contextual usage etc. “
- Yes. The Sinhalese (Sinhala language) words are very similar: “pilana” is the same (පීලන), although the word “peleema” (පෙලීම) is more common; “bhara” is “bara” (බර).
- Languages in that region have similar words with similar meanings. That is why I was able to guess the meanings of the words you used.
You wrote: “This constant pressure to maintain is the “bhara”, or “parihara bhara” or “peeda”.”
- I am guessing what you mean by “bhara” is the “burden” and “peedā” is “stress” (“pilana” in Pāli)?
If so, that sentence embeds what the Buddha was trying to teach.
- “Bhara” (or bhāra) is the burden of “seeking pleasure in worldly things.” Since worldly things never provide lasting happiness (instead, seeking them leads to more suffering in the long term), people (and all living beings) are trapped in this process. Icca (or iccha) is the desire for worldly things and, thus, to pursue them.
- That is why the Buddha said, “pancupadanakkhandha is dukkha.” See #8 of the new post “Pāli Suttās in Tipiṭaka – Direct Translations are Wrong.”
- This message is embedded in the “Bhāra Sutta (SN 22.22).”
Can you explain the reasons for your conjecture?
- How does one cultivate jhana? If you can answer that things will become clear. I invite anyone to answer this question. I will wait for a day or two.
- Instead of repeating what others say, it is wise to understand the reasons. Ask the question from those who gave you this idea. How do they cultivate jhana?
The English translation of that sutta in the following link is good enough to answer your question: “Nandiyasakka Sutta (SN 55.40)”
@marker 3.1 Nandiya asks the Buddha: ” And how does a noble disciple live negligently?”
- Buddha says: “Firstly, a noble disciple has aveccappasāda in the Buddha.
- But some are content with that confidence and don’t make a further effort to make progress by day and night.”
- When they live negligently, there’s no joy. When there’s no joy, there’s no rapture. When there’s no rapture, there’s no tranquility. When there’s no tranquility, there’s suffering. When one is suffering, the mind does not become immersed in samādhi. When the mind is not immersed in samādhi, principles do not become apparent. Because principles have not become clear, they’re reckoned to live negligently.”
- That explanation is repeated for a negligent Ariya with aveccappasāda in Dhamma and Sangha up to @marker 4.12.
@marker 5.1: The Buddha says: “And how does a noble disciple live diligently?”
- Firstly, a noble disciple has aveccappasāda in the Buddha.
- But they’re not content with that confidence and make further effort by day and night. When they live diligently, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, they feel the bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. When the mind is immersed in samādhi, principles become clear. Because principles have become clear, they live diligently.
- That explanation is repeated for a diligent Ariya with aveccappasāda in Dhamma and Sangha up to the end of the sutta.
Some people get to the Sotapanna stage and don’t make an effort to make further progress, i.e., try to get to the higher stages. Lady Visaka was a good example.
- Many others did make that effort and attained higher magga phala.
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“Unshakable confidence with wisdom (aveccappasada) in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.”
Yes. That is a good measure of whether one is a Sotapanna.
- However, the key is defining “Unshakable confidence with wisdom (aveccappasāda)”
- One could say that based on “blind faith” without having a deeper understanding.
One becomes a Sotapanna (or Sotapanna Anugami) when one can see the futility and danger of being trapped in the rebirth process. The rebirth process continues because of one’s attachments (cravings/tanha) for worldly things.
- The word “aveccappasāda” (avecca pasāda or ava icca pasāda) has that meaning.
- See #12 of “Sotapatti Aṅga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.”
When one can “see that with wisdom” or “Sammā Ditthi,” one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugāmi. However, a Sotapanna still has not removed cravings or kāma rāga; that happens at the Anāgāmi stage. Yet, with that “Sammā Ditthi,” a Sotapanna‘s mind would not engage in a severe immoral deed that can lead to rebirth in the apāyās.
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Many concepts have been incorrectly translated over the years, especially in current English translations. So, be patient.
- I will discuss this issue in the new post later today.
Thank you!
- There are a few errors. The first one at the top of the table: “Here Anityata (Impermanence) in ones Life is seen.”
- “Anicca” does not mean just impermanence, even though impermanence is part of it.
- An introduction to the sutta: “Essence of Buddhism – In the First Sutta“
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Informative. Thank you!
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