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Embodied said: “that there’s something of my gandhabba in yours and vice-versa?”
Why do you need to make things so complicated? What does it have to do with a beginning? Please think carefully and formulate your question correctly. I am still not sure what your question is.
How can two gandhabbas overlap? Gandhabba is a lifestream, just like a brahma. The only difference in a human is that we have physical body with the gandhabba inside. A brahma only has a gandhabba or a mental body.
Embodied said: “But once achieved isn’t Nibbana an Absolute knowing?”
First think about “knowing”: That involves “thinking”. Thinking involves thoughts which means citta and cetasika. Those belong to this world of 31 realms.
Everything in the 31 realms have citta, cetasika, rupa (matter). Nibbana does not have ANY of those. It is useless to speculate what is in Nibbana.
We don’t know ANYTHING AT ALL about what is in Nibbana. All we know is that Nibbana exists and that it is OUTSIDE the 31 realms; see the posts in “Nibbana“.
I don’t have any idea how the initial question on “no discernible beginning” is connected to different Buddhas etc. Please formulate your questions carefully. It is a waste of time to try to understand what is meant in a question.
Please read about Nibbana before asking any more questions: “Nibbana“.
P.S. There is nothing special about a gandhabba. Any living being has a mental body or manomaya kaya. For a human or an animal, it is given a special name of gandhabba.
The manomaya kaya keep changing as one goes from bhava to bhava. In some brahma bhava, it is the only body. In other bhava there is a denser body associated with it.
If question is whether there was a first bhava in any realm, then it leads to the question: How did that manomaya kaya arise? For any living being, the Buddha did not see such a first.
A related question is: If there an infinite number beings at some earlier time, and there have been an infinite number of Buddhas who helped an infinite number of living beings to attain Nibbana, how come there are still an infinite number of beings left now? Modern mathematics confirms that infinity minus infinity is still infinity!
See: “Infinity – How Big Is It?“The principle of causation, which is the basis of scientific studies, says that an effect arises due to one or more causes. Things just don’t happen or “pop-up into existence” without a cause(s).
Therefore, by definition, there cannot be a “first cause”.
In creator-based religions, it is ASSUMED that the first cause is the Creator.
But that assumption itself is contradictory to the principle of causation. How did the Creator come into existence?The Buddha declared what he experienced. He could look back at the past with an incredible speed, but could not see a “beginning”. That is why he just said that there is no discernible beginning: No matter how far back he looked, he could not see a “beginning”.
Firewns said: “I have read somewhere that circumambulation clockwise around a stupa or Buddhist relic brings enormous merit to oneself.
Is it really a kusala kamma to do so, or merely a form of silabbata-paramaso?
Also, if it is a kusala kamma, will circumambulating anti-clockwise negate its merit and instead bring demerit upon oneself?”It is always good to know how the key Pali terms originated (“pada nirukti”).
Kusala comes from “ku” + ”sala”, where “ku” refers to “kunu” or keles or defilements, and “sala” means “to get rid of”.
“akusala” is the opposite of “kusala”.
Therefore, an akusala kamma is an action that defiles or contaminates one’s mind. Any kusala kamma involves an action that involves removal of defilements from one’s mind.Now it must be clear that circumambulation (walking) around a stupa or Buddhist relic is neither a kusala or an akusala kamma.
The word “punna” is related to joy; the Sinhala word “pina” or “pin” is associated with “pinaveema” or “making one’s heart joyful.
Therefore, a punna kamma is an action that makes one’s heart filled with joy. It is usually an action out of saddha (faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha). Such actions may not necessarily be kusala kamma, but some punna kamma are kusala kamma too.
For example, when one offers food to the bhikkhus (or even to a hungry person) with joy in heart, that is both a kusala kamma (giving which is the opposite of stealing), and also a punna kamma because one does with joy.
Circumambulation around a stupa or Buddhist relic (usually while reciting a gatha or Tisarana Vandana) is a punna kamma. In fact, it belongs to the same category as offering flowers and reciting pirith (paritta).
The key reason is that one’s mind becomes temporarily free of pancanivara (kamaccandha, vyapada, tina middha, uddacca kukkucca, and vicikicca) when doing a punna kamma. All those actions make one’s mind joyful and be receptive to deep Dhamma. It is good to do them before sitting down to listen to a desana.
Whether there is an effect for clockwise or counter- clockwise, I am not sure. If there is, it must be a small effect.
In fact, when one does mundane anapana (breath meditation), that could be a punna kamma, but NOT a kusala kamma. That is because it helps keep the mind focused on the breath and thus suppress pancanivarana temporarily. But, by itself, it does not remove any defilements.
April 28, 2018: More details in a new post: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.
Hi Johnny: There are so many misinterpretations in the texts that you quoted. I just don’t have time to go through them, so I will just point out a couple in order to illustrate the point that how bad Buddha Dhamma (per Tipitaka) has been misinterpreted.
For example: “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. One who is concentrated knows and sees the Four Noble Truths as they really are.”
– What they translate as “concentration” is the Pali word “sati”. The closest transaltion of “sati” is probably “mindset”. That becomes clear when you understand what is meant by “samma sati” (“san” +”ma” means to remove “san” or defilements). – Thus, samma sati is the mindset needed to remove defilements from the mind, which is basically a comprehension of Tilakkhana.Another is: “When concentration improves, the body disappears. One sees just a block of four elements; one’s whole body becomes just a block of four elements. One does not see a face, a hand, or a leg.”
– That is just pure fiction. Didn’t the Buddha (or all those Arahants) see and recognize people?Same thing with the statement, ““Whether one regards mountains, trees, flowers, living things, or non-living things, everything becomes the same – nothing more than tiny particles that constantly arise and perish.”
By the way, who made these statements (or translations)? You should always provide a link to the source.
y not said: “.. put another way,say he does attain the Sakadagami stage in that third Jati, will he still have to come back here until the human Bhava is exhausted before he ‘appears’ in a Deva realm?”
Bhava could be broken while in the middle of it.
– First is to realize that if one attains Arahanthood, no more birth in any realm when the current human physical body dies.
– If one attains the Sakadagami stage, the next birth would NOT be in the human realm, but in the deva realm.
– Even when one attains an anariya jhana, one’s next birth would be in a brahma realm. But of course, one would come back to the human realm in the future, and may even be reborn in the apayas.
– If a Sotapanna attains an Ariya jhana, he/she will be born in a brahma realm and WILL NOT come back to human realm or even deva realm.So, there are various situations that one can analyze. It may take some time for all this to become clear. One needs to keep reading relevant posts (and keep contemplating, not just reading).
Thanks, Donna, for various suggestions for improvements.
I saw that I could remove the option for a user to leave log of different edits. I have removed that option. For all: Please keep in mind that a given post can be edited only within an hour of posting.
Thank you, Donna, also for the offer to make donations. That is not necessary, but I appreciate your kindness. You have helped in many ways, including the suggestion above.
The best way to contribute to the efforts of this website is to “spread the Pure Dhamma” to as many as possible, but only to those whom you know could be interested in Buddha Dhamma.
What is seela (sila) or moral conduct?
- When one becomes a Sotapanna, two important things happens to ones’ mind:
- This is why “san” is such a key word; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.
- Of course, these are only the first stages of “sanditthiko” and “sanvara” attained at the Sotapanna stage. One gets to higher magga phala, will “see san” even better (sanditthiko), and thus become more moral or “sanvara”.
- Today, people are judged by their outward appearances. If one talks slowly, walks slowly, one is ASSUMED to have high moral standards.
- Anyway, this is the basic idea. As one makes progress on the Ariya Path, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing dasa akusala, first at strong levels (capable of leading to births in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage; then eventually rebirth at any realm in this world at the Arahant stage. Thus, only an Arahant will have “perfect sila“.
– Of course, one MUST forcefully stay away from any dasa akusala when one realizes one is about to do one. If one realizes that one just did such an act, one must make a determination to avoid it next time. That is how one makes progress.
– Feel free to ask more questions if further clarifications are needed.
– One becomes “sanditthiko” or “san” + “ditthiko” or “one who has seen “san” to some extent (enough to avoid apayagami citta from automatically arising under ANY circumstance).
– Because of that now one can avoid worst defilements that could make one eligible to be born in the apayas. Then one is said to have attained “sanvara”, or “san” + “vara”, meaning “warding off san” or “ability to stay away from san”. Sanvara in both Pali and Sinhala therefore, mean “being moral because one has seen san”.
– This is why the Buddha said, “sanvaratttena seelan” or “one becomes moral by removing “san” or defilements”. To put it another way, this means staying away from dasa akusala.– The ability to see “san” (defilements of greed, hate, ignorance that come to one’s mind) increases significantly when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, i.e., at the Sotapanna stage.
– When one gets to the Arahant stage, one has become fully “sanditthiko” and one is at the highest possible moral standards.
– On the other hand, a Sotapanna may run if needed, may even talk a bit harshly (not with malice), to get a point across to someone who “is slow to get it”, etc.
– I know people who write nice words, but I can sense their malice in the way they write.y not said:”My post does not show. It disappeared (to me, at least) after I had edited to correct the format. I am surprised somewhat that it was there for you to read.”
You have not read the following WARNING I had put out:
March 23, 2018: Do not try to edit posts older than an hour! It will get DELETED. Just make a new reply with what you want to revise.
This is the way the bb Press software (that runs this discussion forum) is setup. Please keep this in mind.
I was occupied most of yesterday. I will try to comment today or tomorrow. Y not can post his comment again if he wants to.
Lang said: “.. especially the explanation of “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”. In this case, dhammā is synonymous with bhava, then?”
To be precise, it is dhammā that give rise to bhava. But they are essentially the same, both are kammic energies built up by vinnana or desires/hopes. Of course, desires/hopes must be connected to dasa akusala in order to qualify. For example, if one is planning to steal something, he/she will be thinking about it with vaci sankhara and generating bad vinnana.
Furthermore, dhammā in this context are the same as kamma beeja built up by vinnana. This is a bit deeper aspect:
“What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.Please don’t hesitate to ask more questions if this is not clear.
Embodied said:
“1.Sitting virasana or siddhasana (my 2 favorite postures for any kind of formal session) in a silent place (relatively…not so easy to get nowadays) I get into in a state of global receptiveness to whatever sanna surfaces.
2. One should switch between environment and body sannas.
3. So let’s suppose that i start by noticing i.e. the distant noise of a car – I listen to it for some seconds (usually not more than 5) but don’t elaborate on it meaning why it pleases me or not pleases or neither.
4. Then i turn my attention/focus to the body and notice the nature of the contact between my pelvis/tighs and the floor, which may include sensations of temperature, softness or hardness,etc doesn’t matter in fact, i simply notice it for not more than 5 secondes and move on to an “external”/environmental sanna i.e. :light nuances let’s suppose…
5.then again back to the body i notice my breathing-rhythm without interfering with it. And so on.”How is this going to remove greed, hate, ignorance from one’s mind?
I have no doubt that it will calm down one’s mind. But how is this, by itself, going to make progress in removing defilements from one’s mind and change one’s gati for the better?
I am trying to understand what you mean by ““Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on and so on.”
What are some examples?
Regarding my example mentioned earlier:“Suppose you are sitting cross-legged at one of these meditation retreats. You start feeling pain in your legs.”
I have heard that in some of these meditation retreats people are told to “just bear the pain and it will get better”.
– The painful sensation is generated by the nervous system because (for someone who is not used to be in that position for long times), the blood flow to certain body parts is cut off. It is a warning to say, “shift the leg to allow blood flow’. If one ignores that signal one of two things may happen: (i) Most of the time it may get a better, because the body may get used to it, especially if one increases the time gradually,
(ii) if one over does it and tries to maintain the position for too long in one setting, it may even cause damage to those nerves.Even if someone gets used to that position over time, that is a “mundane progress”. It is not any different from learning to swim or doing a 100 yard dash within a certain time.
– It has not done anything to get rid of greed, hate, ignorance. Thus there is no “spiritual progress”.Embodied said: “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on and so on.”
Let us take an example. Suppose you are sitting cross-legged at one of these meditation retreats. You start feeling pain in your legs. That is a vedana. What would be your response? Do you just notice that and move on without doing anything to get relief from that pain?
Anyone else can ask any question about how they deal with any specific type of “vedana” experienced during meditation. Rather than talking theory, it would be more beneficial to discuss actual situations.
@y not: The perception of “me” or “myself” (which is called asmi mana) is going to be there until the Arahant phala is attained.
So, that is who that will be doing all those things that you listed.
Also see: “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.
I think it is the second stanza that Donna (inflib) is referring to:
“Mūlaṃ papañcasaṅkhāya, Mantā asmīti sabbamuparundhe
Yā kāci taṇhā ajjhattaṃ, Tāsaṃ vinayā sadā sato sikkhe.”Which is translated at that website as:
“One should completely extract
The root of proliferation and reckoning—
The notion, “I am the thinker”.
One should train to dispel whatever craving
There is inside, ever mindful.”I think a better translation would be:
All papi sankhara (apunna abhisankhara) that arise need to be rooted out via breaking the asmi mana spell (mantā), which is the lens (kāci) of tanha that is inside (in one’s mind). By being ever mindful (sadā sato), one should train (sikkhe) to be disciplined (vinayā).This is the ultimate goal, to attain Arahantship by breaking asmi mana (which is the mana in the last five samyojana removed at the Arahant stage). As we have discussed before, this asmi mana is the “perception of a self”.
In the rest of sutta, steps to be taken are stated.
But it is critical to understand that breaking asmi mana samyojana comes at the end, not at the beginning when one is striving to be a Sotapanna or even an Anagami.
Thanks to Cubibobi (Lang) for providing a detailed description. This clarified to me what is done in the Goenka “Vipassana sessions”.
- Lang said: “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”, translated as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”
- Then the mind starts automatically generates mano sankhara based on how that sense input matches with one’s gati.
- So, the critical step here in Vipassana (or Anapana or Satipatthana) is to be aware of those mano sankhara that automatically arise due to one’s gati (based on sense inputs from ALL SIX senses), and not to let “bad vaci sankhara” to take hold.
- To look at it from a different angle: the mind starts making good or bad judgments based on initial “vedana” as described by Paticca Samuppada: “salayatana paccaya phassa”, “phassa paccaya vedana”, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana, upadana paccaya bhava, bhava paccaya jati.
- Again, the point is that not only “kaya vedana” but vedana due to all six senses lead to the mind making good or bad decisions, which end up in “sabbe dhamma” in the above verse, “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhamma”, which now we can translate as, “all types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhamma”.
- Just by being aware of body sensations, one cannot remove defilements (greed, hate, and ignorance, where ignorance includes both removal of the 10 types micca ditthi and then comprehending Tilakkhana). That should be obvious even without such a lengthy and deeper explanation given above.
– Vedana is not just “body sensations” involving just kaya or the body.; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
– Each and every thought is initiated by a sensation received by any of the six indriya (or ayatana): cakkhu (seeing), sota (hearing), ghana (a smell), jivha (a taste) ,kaya (body sensation), and mano (dhamma coming to the mind).– For example, classical music may trigger joyful mano sankhara in an older person who loves classical music, but may generate irritating thoughts in a teenager who loves loud music. Then one may generate more vaci sankhara (good or bad). In another example, a habitual thief may see a valuable item, may get attached to it instantaneously (mano sankhara) and decide to steal it (vaci sankhara), which in turn lead to kaya sankhara to grab the item and flee.
– The second aspect is to cultivate any good mano sankhara that arise – Both can be investigated based on Tilakkhana, as one’s understanding of Tilakkhana grows.
– Here “salayatana” means “six ayatana“: cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and mano.
– These “bhava” are the energies created by the mind for future births, and dhamma in this context is another term for “bhava”; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.– Now it should be clear to those who have studied Pure Dhamma posts on these subjects that there is a definite answer to Lang’s second question: “Is there potential in this technique in removing defilements? Is there a sound foundation for it in the tipitaka?”
So, I can say without any doubt that such kind of “vipassana” cannot lead to Nibbana.
