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Christian wrote: ” As Sotapanna you can still have cravings especially those deep-rooted ones.”
It is true that a Sotapanna would have kama raga (i.e., he/she would still enjoy sense pleasures).
But he/she would not have jealousy for anyone else having better access to sense pleasures.
– Cravings do not necessarily lead to jealousy.
– It is a step-by-step process. At the next step, Sakadagami would still like sense pleasures, but would not have any desire to OWN objects that provide sense pleasures.Christian wrote: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”
Could you elaborate who said that? I did not see such a statement, but I may have missed it.
upekkha100 wrote: “So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?”
firewns wrote: “For the attainment of sotapanna magga phala, formal meditation techniques are not necessary as one can listen to a desana by a knowledgeable Ariya.”
That is correct: Formal meditation is not necessary (but could be used) for the Sotapanna phala.
But meditation could also be interpreted as contemplation. Contemplation is necessary for any kind progress. One needs to comprehend the “world view” of the Buddha.
firewns other comments are very insightful. When one cultivates sobhana cetasika, it automatically leads to the suppression of asobhana cetasika. Therefore, when one is on the Path, not only immoral thoughts, but also kama raga is reduced (gradually).
Hi Tobias,
Thanks for pointing out the error. I just revised the statement as follows:“A purified mind of an Arahant would have maximized sōbhana cetasika, including paññā (wisdom). Once that is done one would not grasp any bhava at the cuti-patsandhi moment, since one has fully comprehended the futility of any existence in the 31 realms”.
lucas.cambon wrote: “Sotāpanna occurs upon attainment of the seventh stage.”
I think this is a misunderstanding. The completion of the seven visuddhis is the same as completing the Noble Eightfold Path. So, if someone completes them, one would be an Arahant.
Could you provide a Tipitaka reference for a Sotapanna completing all seven visuddhis?
P.S. I just found the following sutta, which confirms what I stated above:
“Ratavinita Sutta (MN 24)“.A fairly good English translation is at:
“Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots“I will try to post a regular post on Agganna sutta in the coming days. That will be easier than to keep writing here.
Of course, it will be an outline only but hopefully will clarify how complex this whole issue is.
Welcome to the forum, lucas.cambon!
Different people “see” Nibbana differently. But I am a bit puzzled by: ““In order to enter the Stream one MUST experience Nibbana, going beyond mind and matter and entering in the state of Nirodha where all the senses (including the mind) stop working.”
Is that something that you experienced or what you think it should be? If it a personal experience, it would be beneficial for others if you can describe what that experience was like.
Dukkha nirodha is “stopping future suffering”.
– Nirōdha comes from “nir” + “udā“, where “nir” meaning stop and “udā” is arising.
– Nirōdha could also mean, “ni” + “rōdha” where “ni” again is stop and “rōdha” refers to “wheel” or “wheeling” referring to samsāric journey.At the first stage of Nibbana (Sotapanna), one “sees” why Nibbana should be realized (that repeated birth in the 31 realms is filled with suffering much more than temporary occasions of happiness) AND how that can be realized. It is like seeing “the path” to get to the destination (Nibbana or Arahanthood).
– In a mundane sense it is like “seeing” how 3 plus 5 is 8, without having to count with fingers. One just realizes the anicca nature of this world: That one can never maintain anything to one’s satisfaction.Now one may start feeling bodily sensations on the way to get that moment or even after that phala moment.
– That is associated with getting to samadhi and in some cases jhana.All senses stop working only in nirōdha samāpatti, which can be attained only after getting to at least the Anagami stage AND after cultivating all the Ariya jhanas.
Upekkha100 wrote:”“But before reaching such a stage one has to analyse the dhamma and needs hints and proof to establish saddha/panna. I agree with this.”
I agree with that too.
But one does not need to learn about the beginning of the world to establish faith in Buddha Dhamma. One needs to feel the niramisa sukha by following the Eightfold Path to establish faith.
– Investigating how the Earth was formed, is not something that can be described even in several posts.
– In order to properly discuss the Agganna sutta will take a book.
– Furthermore, it will take precious time away from focusing on more urgent needs. Each person should focus on getting release from the apayas first, in my opinion (and then getting released from the kama loka).Let me just say one thing about the sutta. The Buddha delivered that sutta to two brahmins, to explain that not only vedic brahmins but ALL LIVING BEINGS on this Earth came from the pabhassara brahma realm in the beginning (i.e., each and every living being on this was a brahma at the beginning).
-Now you can see why there are going to be many questions.
-There are more urgent things to discuss right now. From my recent experience at Dhamma Wheel discussion board, I am amazed at how little general public knows about the BASICS of Buddha Dhamma. There is much to do on that front.Upekkhas100’s questions:
“So sensing the absence or arising of jealousy within us is one good indication of whether one is a Sotapanna or not.”It is true that a Sotapanna would have removed jealousy: When one realizes the anicca nature, there is nothing to be jealous about. Jealousy comes from another person owning “valuable stuff”.
– But it may not be straightforward to make a determination based on just that. Furthermore, jealousy may not arise in one situation, but may arise in another.“Though I feel I should point out and emphasize: the only way to be sure if one is really a Sotapanna or any Ariya is a confirmation by the Buddha.”
That is not correct. One could determine for ONESELF (But only a Buddha can determine the status of another person). The buddha has stated that it is fine, and also fine to declare it too (see Maha Parinibbna Sutta, for example). But of course, one may make such declaration with or without merit. We just don’t know.
– In any case, there is no point in even trying to guess the status of another.
– Even for oneself, if it is not clear whether one has attained any magga phala, it would not matter much. One’s efforts will NOT go to waste. Even if one has a dvi-hetuka birth, it will help one get a tihetuka birth.
– Until Arahanthood, one should not “slow down”. One time a bhikkhu stopped striving and when asked by the Buddha said that he had attained the Anagami stage and thus he would not mind being born in brahma worlds. The Buddha asked him if he had feces in his hand and wiped it off, would it not still smell. The bhikkhu understood and was able to attain the Arahanthood.Upekkha100 asked: “So one can get to jhana via focusing on one of these four: metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha?”
One gets to jhana by overcoming the kama loka.
Anariya jhana are attained by SUPPRESSING kama raga. Ariya jhana are attained by REMOVING kama raga, i.e., one would an Anagami to get to even to the first Ariya jhana.
There are two brahma realms below the one that can be reached via doing the metta bhavana:
“31 Realms of Existence”So, it is a gradual process to get to higher brahma realms.
Yeos said: “you’ll notice, if you didn’t notice already, that i mention 6 senses in my post.”
I was not responding to your post, Yeos. I was just making a point.
Now, there is “individuality” there, when consciousness arises due to a sense input. One’s gathi affect the citta (thoughts) that arise.
– These gathi are the same as anusaya, that are triggered by a strong sense input.The idea of a “mind” in particular “my mind” comes from our ability to recall the past. We can recall what we did yesterday, last year, many years ago. The mind is really in our our thoughts, and it exists only when thoughts arise; see, “What is Mind? How do we Experience the Outside World?“.
Even if we cannot recall things in detail, we can see the continuity of “me”: I looked like this when I was ten, I got married x years ago, my first child was born xx years ago, etc.
Of course, we NEED to have those memories in order to live the present moment. If we don’t remember where the bathroom is, for example, we will have a problem; see, “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)“.
But what I am trying to say is that UNLESS we experience a sense input with one of the six senses, we would not be aware of a “world existing”.
Some people live for long periods of time without gaining consciousness. Where is their “mind” during that time?
The only thing that does not ever cease to exist (until Parinibbana) is hadaya vatthu, where thoughts CAN arise (IF AND WHEN a sense input comes through one of the six sense faculties). Of course, the nature of that hadaya vatthu keeps changing from bhava to bhava. At the cuti-patisandhi moment, the old hadaya vatthu cease to exist and a new hadaya vatthu is created by kammic energy.
Somethings to think about!
P.S. I revised the post 2 hours later!
One point I was trying to make is that there is no “mind” that exists all the time.
Instead of talking about a mind, it is better to say that citta (loosely translated as “thoughts”) arise when at least one thought object comes to any one of the six (not just five) senses.
This was explained in a previous topic:
On the Vibhaṅgasutta – About the 4 JhanasWhen one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):
“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.
Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.
That is from my earlier post.This piti is different from mundane joy. It comes from the mind “being released” from kāma assāda.
“generate more compassionate thoughts and engage in compassionate activities like giving.”
This can happen in two ways:
1. One may do all this with future expectations for a “good birth” (such a person would be on the mundane path).
2. One may still do those things after getting on the Noble Path, i.e., after comprehending Tilakkhana at least to some extent).In both cases, compassion is likely to be involved to at least some extent.
The Buddha said EVERYONE should be engaging in such activities. Punna kamma are not be afraid of. They will never be a hindrance to one’s progress.
